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I got Randy Vincent's Line Games off the shelf and tried to go through it again. There is already a great thread that covered this book when it first came out, but that thread is no longer active. I'd like to open the discussion again.
I'm encountering several stumbling blocks:
1) The book is rich in written examples. While I can read musical notation, I can't quite sight-read the examples at tempo. Each one might take me several minutes to master. That makes going through this book extremely slow for me.
A web-site with audio tracks would be really helpful. Now I know that this is a tall order as R. Vincent's books have hundreds of examples, so I would take some time for someone to record them all.
In some cases, RV cites the tune and chorus where an example can be heard, so I can search Youtube for the performance and listen carefully to find the solo chorus that the example was taken from. Sometimes I can find it - sometimes I can't. Now I know that this kind of intent listening can be very beneficial, but I also have a day job. So I might have to make a choice between using my time to read this book and listen for examples vs practicing tunes.
In other cases, RV might mention the name of the artist that first recorded the line an example was taken from, but not the song. So if I want to hear it, the only was is for me to play it.
2) In the first chapter of Line Games, RV gives fingerings for playing the C-maj and C-melodic-minor hex scales in three octaves across almost 12 frets. Then he introduces a practice loop for each scale written in musical staff that employs the 2-note cells to form a looping melody. The fingerings he gives for the scales work when playing the scales sequentially, but I find them incredibly awkward and unintuitive when using the same fingerings on the practice loops.
So while this book looks very rich in content and material, it can also be very slow going for me. I'm just wondering if anyone else has made any progress with this book and what challenges they might have encountered.
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01-31-2016 11:28 PM
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Have you considered using a product like musescore (free), putting your own score together, and then using the player to hear the timing? You can also easily change the key with the product. It's pretty quick once you get the hang of it.
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I'm working through this book myself this year. I like it a lot.
1) On the written examples: I'm not a great reader either, but I feel like you don't have to be to use the book. The examples from Wes, Martino, etc., are more to show you what something sounds like. I don't try to master each one at tempo. I think it serves to get you to "buy in" to the approach, when you hear the cool lines.
It's the scales and lick examples where I really spend my practice time. There's not much reading there, in fact the point seems to be get it into your hands and ears, and get away from the page.
2) I haven't gotten to the three octave scales yet. I'll check that out and report back if I learn anything. (I don't have the book with me now.) I've done some of the work with the practice loops in the positions (i.e., c major in fifth position, etc). Those loops seem to work nicely. By the way, I'm spending a week on each position, with the major and minor. So, five weeks just to get through the positions once. I' simultaneously working through the first set of altered licks.
You've stated that it can be slow going--I think that's right, at least at my level. I would think several months for me just on Chapter one, the hexatonic stuff. But that's part of the value of the book, or any good music book, to me--it gives you a concept, but you need to spend a long time (weeks? months?) with it to make it your own.
I'm interested to hear from you as we both work through it--I really like Vincent's stuff!
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Good answer @dingusmingus. Okay, I'll stop complaining and eat my vegetables. lol!
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I have mus-score, but I can still read and play better than I can use it so I guess I'll try to stick to playing the examples.
Thanks!
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Hah!
Originally Posted by lsiden
For the past month, I've found the Vincent material pretty fun if (1) I take my time with it and (2) do plenty of other stuff, like transcribe, play tunes, etc.
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Hi all!
I just started with the book as well.
(1) In terms of the examples: I'm not really sweating them at all. Having worked through the first half of Pat Martino's "Linear Expressions" with my teacher, he said that memorizing a few examples is a good way build chops and speed and really internalize the sound. Other than that, reading through a series of examples by Pat or Wes isn't going to make or break your playing.
(2) For Chapter 1: are you guy practicing, as Randy suggests, all of the different patterns (Ex 31, 33, etc)?
(3) I'm looking forward, hopefully by the end of the month, to apply it to some tunes -- Solar and Autumn Leaves come to mind.
(4) Chapter 2 looks super cool -- combining the hexatonic logic with chromatic embellishments.
Can we upload our own tracks on this site? I'd love to get some feedback.
Cheers,
Dan
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Hey Dan,
I have been doing those patterns. In each position, I run the patterns for the major and melodic minor scales. I think of them as eight patterns.
1. up, up
2. up, up (skipping a pair)
3. up, down
4. up, down (skipping a pair)
5. down, down
6. down, down (skipping a pair)
7. down, up
8. down, up (skipping a pair)
Here, up, up means play the first note pair ascending (e.g., C, D), then the second also ascending (E, G), etc.
Probably over explaining--my point is only that I don't read the patterns, I just apply the principles to each location.
Anyway, I'm working through that slowly. At the same time, I'm using those later examples of melodic minor patterns over the V chord to get alt flavors. I don't have the book in front of me--ask if that's confusing. That, I apply to tunes right away.
So far so good--I think it's really worthwhile material.
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Thanks!! Off to work on this material.
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Although i can sigh-read (not veeery well rythmicaly) , i'm very slow at it too , and sometimes i fail to capture the vibe of a realy long line , thus i'm stuck at the very beginning (EX 1.2) i tried to compose un musecore , but it sounded just awful , i don't know to swing using musecore ! Originally Posted by lsiden
I suggest we do something like a study group for Line games to get the best of it !
And maybe compose and play example and put 'em on sound cloud !
Let me know what you think !
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Yeah, I'd be interested in some type of study group for this text. I am mainly working on the Bergonzi series at the moment, but I always pull these Vincent books back out and look at them. I think one of the reasons I never stuck with these books is partly the presentation/organization of the material. This being said with the utmost respect for Mr. Vincent and his writing. An excellent player and author. I just am able to follow a work such as Bergonzi's volume 6 much better. It kind of feels like "do this, now do this" and so on.
This sentiment is what would make me excited for a study group for this book. Perhaps bouncing ideas and videos off each other for how to practice the material.
p.s.
When I do work on something such as "Line Games" at the same time as I am practicing more traditional tonal harmony (the sort of approach drilled into me in music school) I sometimes wonder if I am spinning my wheels. Does anyone see the approach in "Line Games" as meant to be a method for fingerboard organization that perhaps may clash with someone working out of a different text? Or would you say the weight of the material is in improvisational concepts that could be accomplished without using his fingering suggestions. Of course, at the beginning of one of the books, maybe both (cellular and line games) he says to use whatever fingerings are comfortable!
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I too like the Vincent books but also feel the material isn't very well organized and so far am unable to figure out a practical way of both practicing and putting the ideas to actual use. Guess I'm one of those who needs 'do this, now do this' approach to learning - would really appreciate any suggestions for ways to work with the material in either 'line games' or 'cellular approach'. And yes would also be very interested in a 'study group'.
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Although i just played the very first examples of 'cellular approach' i found it to be much more accessible than "line games" ! Originally Posted by SeanZ
The lines are just too long and it's kinda hard to hear the stuff to have an idea without audio tracks or maybe just midi files ! if only the tracks from which those ideas are presented were mentionned somehow !
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After seeing these recent posts I decided to take down my copy from the bookshelf and have a look.
I have to admit that I too have a difficult time getting into these books. Maybe it's 'cause my style of learning is different than the way these books are organized. I dunno.
It's great there are plenty of examples, but it would be better to be able to relate the examples to the actual recordings. Simply saying; 'This is from an early Joe Pass recording' doesn't really help, unless you're a heavy listener of early Joe Pass and can recognize these phrases from the solos. Perhaps they not mentioned due to copyright challenges?
As far as practicing, I would probably do the following.
From quickly looking through the book it appears to be organized into two groups:
In the first group, a scale is presented along with it's related chord. For example, Ex 1-A thru 1-D on page 1. I would work out a few fingerings and patterns and then practice playing them in all keys, cycle 4. I would record a loop of the chord and practice over that to try and 'hear' the sound.
The second group are examples apparently taken from actual recordings. Take example 1-1 through 1-7 from page 1 and 2. I would first learn them and try to play them using different fingerings, then in different keys. I'd also try playing them using both a swing and latin feel over a loop of the chord. Once I had them under my fingers a bit, I would look for tunes that have minor 7th chords lasting for two measures and try to use that lick over those sections.
That's at least how I'd approach it.Last edited by Dana; 09-13-2016 at 08:42 PM.
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I have the cellular approach but not line games. It really looks excellent, for what it is. I would think you almost have to look at it as standalone work, separate from other endeavors. I tend to over analyze, kind of like what it sounds like occurs with others here. I think something like this cellular approach might best be gotten at by just doing a little of it every day as a supplement. I think we "book people" like to have something we can really dig into and spend a lot of time with. Probably not the best idea anyway.
Maybe I'll lie to my left brain and say it's just a warm-up exercise . Then , later, when its guard is down, reveal the application aspect. :-)
The lines in the cellular approach are symmetrical, and actually pretty easy to play.
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Why don't we collectively write the examples to musecore ?
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I bump this thread guys as it's a great book !
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Is this group still active ?
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