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That's pretty much it. Who do you guys think is really getting into new harmonic territory in 2015?
Ben Monder's latest CD has some pretty extreme stuff going on.
Tim Miller's lines can also be pretty beyond my ears.
I'm hoping David (truthertz) has a contribution here and possibly some clips to share!
I always think of what Mick Goodrick wrote in the advancing guitarist about pianists being 10 years ahead of guitarists. It can be easier in a certain sense to cop from recordings and try to play catch up with other artists rather than take elements and try to push boundaries etc.
Sometimes I play a chord or come up with a little voice leading figure and think "woah, that's so fresh, that's so cool" but then I wonder how many people were in practice rooms 30 years ago playing the same stuff or something more intricate.
Keep in mind I'm not talking about rhythm, taste, or even phrasing.
Anyway, hope you get my train of thought. Interested to see what people think.
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11-25-2015 01:36 PM
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beautiful! loving this thread already!
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Occasional forum member Harvey Valdes has a very advanced concept of harmony.
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I like Harvey Valdes new album he covers from spacey to what I calls angular music and always interesting to me. Below is a link to thing about his new album but you can drill down and Harvey has a lot of videos with his playing. I believe he's a member here and pops up from time to time.
Tim Miller like his chordal work, not not his single like so much. Ben Monder I haven't heard his new album mainly hear him live and I'm on the fence about him. Lage Lund and Gilad Hekselman both are move more into that what I can ECM spacey place not sure if that is what you're calling current harmonic direction.
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This Guy right here.
He is the Jazz Version of Eric Johnson to my ears.
Forget the great chops and listen to his Chords.
He always seems to mix in some really cool chords that are right in the Mood of his piece.
This Guy is ridiculously good .
Jonathan Kreisberg Warms up with Summertime @USC …:
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I have no special suggestion about whose harmony is more advanced. But while I love pianists and definitely listen to Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, and others for their statements and treatment of tunes, I don't think it is realistic to expect to be able to reproduce the same exact harmonies that pianists are capable of achieving. Especially with certain close voicings. But the most interesting thing is that you can still convey much the same harmonic concepts with fewer notes on the guitar.
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Well like you say 'advanced' is open to interpretation. I mean Bach for me is still the most advanced harmony of all time.. I don't think anyone has developed their materials to that extent. Obviously fashion has changed in three hundred years and intonation too and it isn't about major minor functional harmony and counterpoint anymore :-)
Originally Posted by targuit
In terms of advanced fretboard harmony wizards on the guitar, I'd have to say Ben Monder and Lage Lund. Julian lage has some very cool harmony too.
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Are we only mentioning jazz guitar, because there have been many way out classical pieces going back decades. The guitar can definitely encompass way out stuff.
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yes harmonic concepts are evolving..as our ear adjust to hearing more "out" sounds..in time they become "in"
and yes the very old becomes the very new..Bach would be a shredder today..
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I am just broadening my Harmonic Vocabulary here but also getting comfortable using swinging 8th and 16th notes in Solos and learning a bit more about Jazz which is kind of like
20th Century Classical Harmony in many ways.
Much Jazz is based on Major and Minor ii- V- Is and ii`°-V-i 's and may be more limited than Classical due to this.
Unless I am not looking at the full Spectrum of Jazz...it seems although more difficult than chaining ii - V - l s there are other Modulating Sequences that can be chained together to Solo over... but no one seems to be writing those- are they ?
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No, please share! But even in this medium, what do you think is really pushing it for, 2015? Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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There's a lot of great harmony to look at beyond ii Vs! Most accessibly, in the 1960s with Wayne Shorter's compositions, but since then there has been plenty of interesting stuff. Even Monk had a lot of harmony that had very little ii V. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Actually, see here: Standards with few or no ii V
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Originally Posted by docbop
guitar solo around 3:20:
Like or dislike the stuff, I think there's definitely a lot going on harmonically. But I know it's probably not the modern pinnacle.
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hydra has some pat methany and john mclaughlin flavors in it...two players that go outside of harmonic norms quite a bit
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ben monder is the guy
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As far as guitar goes, no one gets close to Ben Monder. You can like him or not, but his facility with harmony is way too advanced compared to any other guitarist out there.
Outside of guitar, there are some pretty heavy guys, though. Few guys include John O'Gallagher, who's whole thing is based on post-tonal theory and came up with pretty much the most detailed concept on improvising using sets and 12-tone rows. Check out his Anton Webern Project for an example of this.
Henry Threadgill has been using a whole idea of cells to think about harmony. Others such as Vijay Iyer have taken the idea and made their own thing out of it, or just expanded on the concept, but Henry is always coming up with some great, new, and extremely interesting music.
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That Ben Monder video. He is playing a drone. You could hit random notes and claim that is harmony? Listen to the opening of Benjamin Britten's masterpiece for guitar "nocturnal". That is brilliant harmony. Monder's piece does not work on the same plane. At least to my ears. Britten is probing, thoughtful, soulful. Monder is simply annoying.
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that is a beautiful piece but that doesn't diminish Monder's tune. I didn't post it as an example of "brilliant harmony" nor did I claim it was. I posted an example of Ben Monders playing, which I think is worth sharing to those who aren't familiar with him. Originally Posted by targuit
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That's funny because I find Britten quite annoying. Well, I quite like the War Requiem. And Hymn to St Cecilia is OK. Originally Posted by targuit
(I honestly think Britten only enjoys popularity because of the BBC and the hang ups of the English cast system. Oh and cos he wrote loads of music for choirs. They can't have Vaughan Williams or Holst as our national composer because they write tunes and are too popular - check out some of Holst's polychord stuff BTW... Great harmonic innovator. And anyone genuinely radical like Birtwistle or early Maxwell Davies frightens the upper middle class establishment. Also all British composers are doomed to write music that sounds exactly like Britten given enough time because of these social forces. I'm convinced of it.)
I will admit Britten has a certain way with a whole tone scale. There's lots of shit in thirds as well. *shrugs*
Anyway. Not into everything the other Ben (Monder) does, but I think this is rather pretty. And distincitvely guitaristic somehow....
Anyway, the guitarists are playing catch up to the pianists. Harmony is not our strong point. It's something we dabble in at best. Pianists get a lot of their harmony from the classical literature because it's what they are brought up with and it's a lot richer than the classical guitar repertoire.Last edited by christianm77; 11-26-2015 at 10:07 AM.
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Proposal: let's leave issues of taste, if they are negative, more or less out of this thread? My aim is to explore players and composers who are breaking new ground harmonically in 2015, surely there will be players posted that don't satisfy everyone's aesthetic preferences.
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Had to give Olivier louvelle a mention here, love this guy and rarely gets mentioned here.
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Thanks, I'll check it out! Just the kind of stuff I was hoping to hear about. Originally Posted by jtizzle
Every seen a good written summary of Threadgill's cell concepts?Henry Threadgill has been using a whole idea of cells to think about harmony. Others such as Vijay Iyer have taken the idea and made their own thing out of it, or just expanded on the concept, but Henry is always coming up with some great, new, and extremely interesting music.
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Back when I actually had time to practice, I had the goal of getting really good at reading grand staff (at Johnny Smith's suggestion) so that I could then work through piano repertoire, not to play it note for note but to glean the harmonic concepts. I think I might need a few decades time off to dig in to that project as much as I'd like... Originally Posted by christianm77
But regarding composed music vs improvisation, it is interesting to think of how much can be accomplished, harmonically, when there's time to think about it then write it down.
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The second tune played by Olivier, apart the funk thing at the end, was a good example of innovative harmonic ideas. Cat knows is stuff. As for Monder, I was much more impressed by the clip Christiann put up - that was quality playing as apart from the drone drivel previously. Just an opinion. I much preferred the second clip.
Last edited by targuit; 11-26-2015 at 11:14 AM.
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