How to play Baroque sounding lines?

[Jonah]

Perhaps his Passacaglia too?

you never know)) to be true many Weiss pieces sound like excercise in improvizing harmony))

they were all great performers and improvozors from early days up to late romantics (Wagner and Tchaikovsky already could not play their own music at the expected performance level).. at the same time improvization was more for fun (like contests), or techincal excercises or warming up and tuning (like preludes and toccatas originally).. written compostion always had a priority in this tradition

Preludes are more chord based, no? The melody here sounds like the result of the chords, not the other way around.

Absolutely.. so probably he could play tons of these... but it would be wrong to play it just like arpeggiato chords - there's hidden polyphony too
(and he makes all the key changes by the way)

he manipulates also with texture a lot to make it more interesting...
I like it..

but you know if you check 'chordal' preludes by Bach... that's where we can see difference between real freedom and to be fair a bit licentious choices...

Famous c-moll Prelude often played on classical guitar in d-minor, I give link to guitar version because I did not find better performance on piano in the net)))

Bach does not change texture at all but how much more passionate, intensive and special this piece in comparison to Weiss's...


Weiss' prelude seems to be very nice baroque solo piece, Bach's is a short glimpse of revelation....

(ended in A -major chord by the way))


Or this...

Bach's choices are like he had no choices at all

[Jonah]

Preludes are more chord based

by the way it is also interesting question of genre (often ignored).... there are genres that are expected to have improvized character and preludes one of them...

I tried to develope this idea in the thread dedicated to the essence of improvization...

I think it is important also - what we hear as improvized...


But off topic here...

[grahambop]

Here's a nice bit of baroque-type business. This is probably written out rather than improvised but I like it (Laurindo Almeida and the MJQ):

[Jonah]

with all my respect to these musicians.... I cant help it... but I just do not understand these performances... you cant just pick correct notes it has to be something else

check this record, it's not great but it's really good, at least it shows what this music really is

I just love it better when 'Bags meets Wes'

[grahambop]

with all my respect to these musicians.... I cant help it... but I just do not understand these performances... you cant just pick correct notes it has to be something else

check this record, it's not great but it's really good, at least it shows what this music really is

I just love it better when 'Bags meets Wes'

I think you're missing the point. No-one is claiming the MJQ is an authentic rendition. The OP asked how to play a tune like Summertime with some kind of baroque vibe. That is similar to what the MJQ did here.

'What this music really is' sounds like a different topic to me.

Don't get me wrong - I love baroque music, it's probably my favourite 'classical' music (if I may use that term). I like playing Bach on the classical guitar.

[Jonah]

I think you're missing the point. No-one is claiming the MJQ is an authentic rendition. The OP asked how to play a tune like Summertime with some kind of baroque vibe. That is similar to what the MJQ did here.

maybe...
I just told my opinion.. I feel a bit sad about it every time.. maybe I take it too personally

but this music tells so much and they absolutely ignored it in this performance...

any performance is claiming to be authentic in broad sence.. if they do it I think they believe in what they're doing... they also probably like baroque, spend a lot of time over it to play it etc..


By the way back to the OP topic - considering your post I see that the best way to get baroque vibe is just to play baroque piece as it is written)))

[mr. beaumont]

To be fair to Jonah, if someone came on this site looking for the quick way to "add a jazz-ish vibe to his metal playing" we'd be up his ass like a thong after a mechanical bull ride.

[grahambop]

maybe...
I just told my opinion.. I feel a bit sad about it every time.. maybe I take it too personally

but this music tells so much and they absolutely ignored it in this performance...

any performance is claiming to be authentic in broad sence.. if they do it I think they believe in what they're doing... they also probably like baroque, spend a lot of time over it to play it etc..


By the way back to the OP topic - considering your post I see that the best way to get baroque vibe is just to play baroque piece as it is written)))

Of course to absorb a baroque flavour, it is a good idea to play some baroque pieces as written - how else would you gain the information? But then what do you do when you want to play jazz with that flavour - keep on playing the baroque piece as written? Sorry I don't understand your objections, in terms of what the OP was asking for.

Clearly you are very knowledgeable about the 'rules' of authentic baroque (I am not), and anything which departs from these rules (such as the MJQ) offends your ear. I totally understand that, but I don't have that problem. I can enjoy real baroque and some (not all) of the MJQ-type pastiches as well.

By the way, Lennie Tristano and Lee Konitz used to do musical exercises such as doing Bach-type improvisations on standards like All the Things You Are. I think it shows that some jazz musicians feel some affinity with Bach and like to adapt it to jazz. Of course they probably did it all wrong in terms of the rule book, but I still wouldn't mind hearing them doing it! Actually Lee Konitz did a kind of passacaglia thing with several horns, I have a recording of that.

[grahambop]

To be fair to Jonah, if someone came on this site looking for the quick way to "add a jazz-ish vibe to his metal playing" we'd be up his ass like a thong after a mechanical bull ride.

I dunno, I reckon we could tell him to stick a couple of ii-V-Is in the middle of Smoke on the Water and send him away satisfied.

[Jonah]

To be fair to Jonah, if someone came on this site looking for the quick way to "add a jazz-ish vibe to his metal playing" we'd be up his ass like a thong after a mechanical bull ride.

thank you

but to be fair to many others.. it is jazz guitar site.. not baroque lute)))

[Guitarzen]

When I was in school we were completely saturated in this stuff. I seem to remember just constantly either learning, hearing other students performing Bach, or analyzing his music. I sang in the choir and we did so much of Bach, as well as Haendel and a few other miscellaneous Baroque composers. We studied so much of Bach's work in theory class. Like the entire 4 part voice writing that we did revolved around Bach for probably the first semester or two, and then of course later we moved into Beethoven and beyond. We spent much time on continuo / figured bass. I remember doing so many written exercises on that. I should be an expert on it but I must admit I can hardly remember any of it, hah! I used to play that Dm prelude and had completely forgotten I learned that. Incidentally, my composition & orchestration teacher was a direct descendant of Bach! I remember being told when I was in school that Bach was known to be an absolutely fabulous improvisor and supposedly he would just sit at the keyboard and improvise an entire concert. Which makes it kind of ironic that most academic musicians would have a heart attack if you played one note not written on the score of Bach's...

[grahambop]

thank you

but to be fair to many others.. it is jazz guitar site.. not baroque lute)))

I do like a bit of baroque lute as it happens. I've got 3 CDs of Nigel North playing Bach on it. What an amazing sound that is!

[Jonah]

Clearly you are very knowledgeable about the 'rules' of authentic baroque (I am not), and anything which departs from these rules (such as the MJQ) offends your ear.

I am not really sure that I am knowledgeable... and my favourite Bach performance for example are not suthentic (Furtwangler, Horowitz, Gould)... I am not purist.. probably any arrangement is possible

but you see here they lose the essential thing in this music... they play it as if it were just long song like any jazz standard... but it's not...

That's why to me it sounds like...
imagine a group of comedians playing Macbeth sincerely thinking it's a romantic comedy by Neil Simon

[christianm77]

I am not really sure that I am knowledgeable... and my favourite Bach performance for example are not suthentic (Furtwangler, Horowitz, Gould)... I am not purist.. probably any arrangement is possible

but you see here they lose the essential thing in this music... they play it as if it were just long song like any jazz standard... but it's not...

That's why to me it sounds like...
imagine a group of comedians playing Macbeth sincerely thinking it's a romantic comedy by Neil Simon

I respect your viewpoint as it comes from a place of knowledge and sensitivity, but I prefer not to take music that seriously.

In some senses, that might be unbelievably offensive, but I like messing around with things that interest me. The MJQ performance comes from a jazz sensibility, which might be alien to Bach, but I quite enjoy that, even while I understand what you are saying.

That said, I have performed and listened to baroque music quite a bit, and I do like it done 'properly' too. It's an amazing tradition.

[grahambop]

I am not really sure that I am knowledgeable... and my favourite Bach performance for example are not suthentic (Furtwangler, Horowitz, Gould)... I am not purist.. probably any arrangement is possible

but you see here they lose the essential thing in this music... they play it as if it were just long song like any jazz standard... but it's not...

That's why to me it sounds like...
imagine a group of comedians playing Macbeth sincerely thinking it's a romantic comedy by Neil Simon

I understand what you mean, they just used a few of Bach's motifs and repeated them on different instruments at different times and so on, they did not develop the whole fugal structure as in the original. But that doesn't bother me, I took it on it's own terms as more of a jazz-type arrangement.

I guess I don't mind the comedians turning it into a comedy if it sounds musical! But I also understand why you might not like it.

[woland]

This is one of the nicest example of Baroque-vibe in jazz guitar that I am aware of:

[woland]

imagine a group of comedians playing Macbeth sincerely thinking it's a romantic comedy by Neil Simon

Oh man.... BRUTAL.
Personally I have faith in musical taste and respect for tradition that MJQ people had.
I think that jazz was always in debt - borrowing from different musical traditions.
Maybe that MJQ vid was not their finest hour but the idea is to absorb sth and evolve
new quality.
Problems start when jazzers try playing classical music. Remember that album by Wynton
Marsalis of Baroque Trumpet concertos? I quite liked it. Until I heard same tunes done by
bona fide classical trumpeter:

Altho I think that Keith Jarret may be a bit of an exception - I like his classical recordings.

[Jonah]

Oh man.... BRUTAL.

I really take it as a matter of perception... I respect their views I do not put into my words offensive intention... I do not mean that they are stupid or idiots.. I just wnat to say that they look at this from absolutely different pov and I try to show that in my opinion they lose a lot because of this (maybe they also gain a lot but I cannot say untill I begin to see like they do)

Altho I think that Keith Jarret may be a bit of an exception - I like his classical recordings.

Me too

I am really not snob... I often prefer amateur performance to professional for example...

Marsalis has penetration into classical for sure.. may be he does it in a bit different way.. but I feel he gets the point

[grahambop]

There was the famous occasion when two naughty boys (Django and Steph) caught poor old Johann Sebastian, made him empty his pockets, and gave him a right old going over.

[grahambop]

Here's another bit of pseudo-Bach frippery which I rather like (George Shearing and Jim Hall). I guess I'm just a sucker for this sort of thing!

[PMB]

BTW I have noticed that Bach, in common with most baroque era composers will tend to avoid the leap of an augmented second in the harmonic minor scale, so although the harmonic minor is a common way to fake a Baroque sound, the melodic minor is in fact more common.

The most notable example occurring in the 2nd bar of the Bourrée in E Minor. I use that all the time to demonstrate the structure and sound of the conventional melodic minor:

[Jonah]

Originally Posted by christianm77
BTW I have noticed that Bach, in common with most baroque era composers will tend to avoid the leap of an augmented second in the harmonic minor scale, so although the harmonic minor is a common way to fake a Baroque sound, the melodic minor is in fact more common.



The most notable example occurring in the 2nd bar of the Bourrée in E Minor. I use that all the time to demonstrate the structure and sound of the conventional melodic minor:

that's why it was called melodic.. I think the original idea was to smooth the line movement (and as shown in this sample - very tipical to use it in ascending line and ti substitute with natural in descending)..

application of harmonic minor was just harmonic to increase dominant chord tension.. to bring in major cadence principles in minor.

I am not sure they ever used this augmented leap in melody at all - except where they wanted to get special ethnic effect but it was much later.

[christianm77]

that's why it was called melodic.. I think the original idea was to smooth the line movement (and as shown in this sample - very tipical to use it in ascending line and ti substitute with natural in descending)..

application of harmonic minor was just harmonic to increase dominant chord tension.. to bring in major cadence principles in minor.

I am not sure they ever used this audmented leap in melody at all - except where they wanted to get secial ethnic effect but it was much later.

You do have the dim7 arpeggio on the other hand....

[Jonah]

Ah... that's important difference, Christian!

I see jazz thinking behind it)))

Baroque player would never treat arpeggio as a line...
for them it was four-voiced harmony and f-g# (key a-moll) are not treated (and not played) as cosequent sounds in line .. they are different voices moving parallel...

Even in fast cadential passages or toccatas they are to be treated as chords, harmony - not lines...

that is there's still only one melody note in this arpeggio

[woland]

I am really not snob... I often prefer amateur performance to professional for example...

Hey man - no worries - well founded snobbery is quite healthy. Plus I actually had good chuckle out of clueless comedians trying to squeeze a laughter or two from Macbeth (just imagine Mel Brooks doing Macbeth - not that he is clueless or anything - but he could pull it off). So basically I forgot to put a smiley after "BRUTAL".