memorizing scale shapes in different keys

[Stubbyfingers808]

Hello,

I'm a high school senior who's trying to major in jazz guitar sometime in the future. Unfortunately I've been turned down by the three colleges that I've auditioned for but I'm going to try again next year and I want to brush up on a few things.

The main thing I think I need to focus on is memorizing where certain scale shapes/positions are located on the fretboard based on the key of the song. I know how to play different scale shapes and modes like altered, and diminished, but I don't know where the shapes are located on the guitar depending on the key. For Ex: in the key of GMaj I can easily play diatonically up and down the fretboard considering I am used to playing in that key, but if the key is in Ab,a key with which I am not as familiar with, how would I know where each scale shape is located? Do I have to memorize each shape location by practicing my scales in every key, or is there a trick to finding the shape?

I know how to find my root position scale shape by finding the root note on the 6th string. I can then move from 1st position to 2nd position to 3rd, etc, but I can't just hop into any position I want to at will. Usually I have to feel my way around the neck to know where I am. I know how to play based on a feeling of certain intervals to find out which position I'm in, but I cant visualize the positions meaning that I'm limited in moving by steps for the most part.

I hope this makes sense. Any advice would be appreciated.

[mr. beaumont]

How's your fretboard knowledge? Sounds a bit like you're relying too much on the visual aspect.

[JazzinNY]

Do I have to memorize each shape location by practicing my scales in every key?

Pretty much, yes. I like the approach in DiMeola's book. He doesn't give a scale "shape" per se. He gives standard notation along with fingering notes. From that, you can deduce the shape. And he emphasizes you should be reading the notes from the staff as you are playing the scale.

[targuit]

First you need to practice your major and minor diatonic scales in every key to know the fretboard cold. When practicing this as a warmup, you should read the notes off the sheet music to improve your reading skills. Second, study chord construction. Integrate that with your scale study by harmonizing the scales. It will soon become apparent to you that as you ascend from first position up the fret board, the relative chord shapes are identical. And for good reason - chords are constructed by intervals from the tonic. But it takes practice to become facile at transposing on the fly.

Jay

[Cunamara]

Stubby, the best advice I can give you is to enroll in the Jimmy Bruno online guitar school. Learn his five shapes for the scales and you'll be able to play in any key at any point on the guitar. The central thing here is to learn movable scale forms and Jimmy teaches that very efficiently. It'll cost you I think $60 for three months (it's been a while since I checked) and it's money well worth it. There is a video submission system to get feedback and advice from Jimmy

the second best advice I can give you is repertoire: learn songs- melody and chords- so that you can play them without a chart. Even better, develop the ability to transpose them into different keys (C to F to Bb, at which point you'll see how to transpose them to Eb, Ab, Db, Gb).

[mhch]

In the past, my fretboard knowledge improved a lot when I decided that instead of trying to learn all the many scale shapes, I should better focus on practicing-mastering the intervals I could easily reach withing a 6 or 7 fret range from any note on any string, independently of any scale.

Once this is mastered, you just have to play the intervals of a given scale, from any note on any string on the fretboard.

The amount of effort to achieve this is at least two orders of magnitude less than learning - mastering scales, and can be achieved in a couple of months. In addition, the error rate is rapidly reduced.

[docbop]

In the past, my fretboard knowledge improved a lot when I decided that instead of trying to learn all the many scale shapes, I should better focus on practicing-mastering the intervals I could easily reach withing a 6 or 7 fret range from any note on any string, independently of any scale.

Once this is mastered, you just have to play the intervals of a given scale, from any note on any string on the fretboard.

The amount of effort to achieve this is at least two orders of magnitude less than learning - mastering scales, and can be achieved in a couple of months. In addition, the error rate is rapidly reduced.

That sound similar to what Nir Felder talks about in his video for MyMusicMaster classes. He said the boxes/shapes approach wasn't working for him so he worked on just learning the fretboard. I like what Nir says in his video.

Nir Felder - Guitar Lesson (1) - My Music Masterclass

[Flyin' Brian]

Give yourself a test:

Play a note (any that you pick) on all 6 strings between frets 1 and 12. It doesn't have to be in the same octave.

For instance pick the note "C".

Starting from the 6th string you'd play at the 8th, 3rd, 10th, 5th, 1st and 8th frets.

Learn the location of every note like that.

Now set your metronome at about 180 and play the notes. 180 should keep technique limitations out of the equation. If you can't do it, slow the metronome down and gradually bring the tempo up as you can. If you can't do it at all, your mental fretboard "picture" is lacking. There's nothing that will get you better at this than to know all of the notes on the fretboard.

[docbop]

Give yourself a test:

Play a note (any that you pick) on all 6 strings between frets 1 and 12. It doesn't have to be in the same octave.

For instance pick the note "C".

Starting from the 6th string you'd play at the 8th, 3rd, 10th, 5th, 1st and 8th frets.

Learn the location of every note like that.

Now set your metronome at about 180 and play the notes. 180 should keep technique limitations out of the equation. If you can't do it, slow the metronome down and gradually bring the tempo up as you can. If you can't do it at all, your mental fretboard "picture" is lacking. There's nothing that will get you better at this than to know all of the notes on the fretboard.

That's part of what Nir Felder talks about and to hit any note on the neck and if necessary just stare at it till you know note it is to visually lock that note name to that fret. Then he says pick a chord out for the practice and besides naming the note say the relationship of the note to the chord. 3, 5, 7, b9 etc.

[MarkRhodes]

Give yourself a test:

Play a note (any that you pick) on all 6 strings between frets 1 and 12. It doesn't have to be in the same octave.

For instance pick the note "C".

Starting from the 6th string you'd play at the 8th, 3rd, 10th, 5th, 1st and 8th frets.

Learn the location of every note like that.

Now set your metronome at about 180 and play the notes. 180 should keep technique limitations out of the equation. If you can't do it, slow the metronome down and gradually bring the tempo up as you can. If you can't do it at all, your mental fretboard "picture" is lacking. There's nothing that will get you better at this than to know all of the notes on the fretboard.

That's an interesting exercise. I'll give that a go later today.

[Flyin' Brian]

That's part of what Nir Felder talks about and to hit any note on the neck and if necessary just stare at it till you know note it is to visually lock that note name to that fret. Then he says pick a chord out for the practice and besides naming the note say the relationship of the note to the chord. 3, 5, 7, b9 etc.

YES!!!

What I was talking about is a quick quiz to see where a player is with fretboard knowledge.

I found that it gave me a starting point, and as usual for most guitar-centric players, a flatted notes took the longest to learn.

[Jonzo]

Make two sets of flash cards.

6 C
(string, note)
Find the correct fret.

6 4
(string, fret)
Name the note.

The easier the answer comes to you, the farther back the card goes into the deck. Thus you practice the hard ones more.

After you master them, use the same deck to learn where the third of a given note is, or what 3rd a given string/fret combination is. Do this for 5ths, 7ths, etc.

[docbop]

Make two sets of flash cards.

6 C
(string, note)
Find the correct fret.

6 4
(string, fret)
Name the note.

The easier the answer comes to you, the farther back the card goes into the deck. Thus you practice the hard ones more.

After you master them, use the same deck to learn where the third of a given note is, or what 3rd a given string/fret combination is. Do this for 5ths, 7ths, etc.

disagree use the instrument because that is what you're trying to relate to. People especially guitarist spend too much time staring at paper, need to get things off the paper ASAP and focus on playing the instrument and making music with what they learned from the paper. Use the guitar in your head is better than paper.

[Jonzo]

I would do this with instrument in hand. Though it could also be done while picturing the fretboard in your mind. Actually, it would probably be best to do it both ways.

Just staring at a note is not a good memorization strategy, because you are simply maintaining information in short-term memory. It is the act of recalling from long-term memory that creates durable memories.

[Patrick2]

In the past, my fretboard knowledge improved a lot when I decided that instead of trying to learn all the many scale shapes, I should better focus on practicing-mastering the intervals I could easily reach withing a 6 or 7 fret range from any note on any string, independently of any scale.

Once this is mastered, you just have to play the intervals of a given scale, from any note on any string on the fretboard.

The amount of effort to achieve this is at least two orders of magnitude less than learning - mastering scales, and can be achieved in a couple of months. In addition, the error rate is rapidly reduced.

Bingo!!!! Positions and intervals.

[targuit]

Frankly, I think that the single most effective approach to mastering the fret board is to learn first the Major and Minor Diatonic Scales as edited by Segovia for fingering. Then, incorporate your study of chords by harmonizing the scales in the context of the modal understanding of scales. In this fashion you will learn the essential fragments of chords available at any fret position on the neck and develop the fluidity and dexterity to transition from one position to the next. Of course you must then apply this knowledge to real jazz or other style tunes.

Jay

[Flyin' Brian]

Kind of to each his own. Yes the scales are important but I found that Segovia's scales didn't lend themselves to improvisation at all. Too much jumping from position to position.

Then again I don't like dogma and while I acknowledge his greatness as a player and salute all that he did for the guitar, Segovia lost me when he told a student to remove his wedding ring while playing a lesson because "You are married to the guitar..no one else" and when he called the electric guitar "a blight".

I prefer the no nonsense approach of Jimmy Bruno or Howard Roberts attitude of, "I don't care if you play it with your nose, as long as you get the note out where it belongs."

[docbop]

Kind of to each his own. Yes the scales are important but I found that Segovia's scales didn't lend themselves to improvisation at all. Too much jumping from position to position.

Then again I don't like dogma and while I acknowledge his greatness as a player and salute all that he did for the guitar, Segovia lost me when he told a student to remove his wedding ring while playing a lesson because "You are married to the guitar..no one else" and when he called the electric guitar "a blight".

I prefer the no nonsense approach of Jimmy Bruno or Howard Roberts attitude of, "I don't care if you play it with your nose, as long as you get the note out where it belongs."

The important thing is that all the dots on a grid are a learning tool and people have to develop fretboard knowledge of the all the notes and hopefully the related harmony. The trouble is too many just learn the borg of patterns and the notes on low E and A string and stop. So like Brian say don't matter how you get there, and I add as long as you don't stop with the dots.

[targuit]

Transitions are precisely the point. No chord usefully exists in isolation but rather as part of a chord progression. The fact that Segovia edited the fingering rather than Bream makes little difference, as ultimately you must evolve your own style of transitioning and voice leading on the fret board. The nuances are many, but if you don't know the fret board cold in the first place, it is much harder to develop your 'system'. I have never seen any "magic" formula, with Bruno or anyone else. I have seen a lot of misunderstanding.

[Playerizor]

I learned the fretboard, by accident, when I learned to read music. Of course you have to take a piece of music and force yourself to play it all over the fretboard. I can't imagine just simply memorizing the notes.