min7 and min6 as basic sounds

[Groyniad]

hi everyone

hope the following is intelligible despite informal presentation - and wondering if its an approach to standard harmony that people recognize/use. its based on garrison fewell youtube tutorials - that's where i found this picture presented clearly for the first time.

if you build triads from 1/3/5/7 of a minor 7 sound you get a series of sounds that could be said to be the melodic extensions of the minor sound.

but this series of sounds (and musical phrases built around these four triads) - can be looked at (heard) in lots of different ways.

if its a g natural minor sound then it could be heard as:

Bb maj. - (first inversion of g min - relative maj)

or - C7 - (the 'five' of g min7)

or - E min7b5 - (first inversion of C7 (perhaps)

or - Bb maj7b5 - (E min7b5 with b5 in base (?)

or - D min7 - (first inversion of Bb maj or second inversion of original g min)

or - F maj7 (second inversion of Bb maj)


so if the key is F - this g natural minor sound is covering everything!
you can hear the g natural minor sound with its melodic extensions as any of the seven chords in F. So the only fundamental sound-family left out is the altered dominant family.

that blows my mind - i can't believe, after treating the distinctions between the seven chords as really basic, that i've found a single sound that incorporates all of them. in particular it gives me my five sound as well as my one sound. wow.

the altered dominant sounds come from a min 6 chord and its melodic extensions built on the b9 of the V chord (Db in the key of F). there are more altered dominant sounds that come from a min 6 chord built on the fourth degree (Bb in the key of F).

So that's everything (barring some harmonic esoterica) - and the guitarist is working on two basic sounds - in the key of F: G min7 and its melodic extensions and Db min6 and its melodic extensions).


i'm not suggesting this is the key to anything etc. etc. just that its kind of striking. i've been working with it for a while and its helped me focus on the key movements in a tune without sacrificing colour and harmonic interest. i think my favorite part of it is how it has helped me get the juice out of unaltered dominant chords.

sorry for the long post - hope its not hopelessly unclear.

[randalljazz]

garrison has quite a few fans on this site (search for threads). his first two books are excellent (haven't read the newest, but it is not the same kind of book).

[princeplanet]

hi everyone

hope the following is intelligible despite informal presentation - and wondering if its an approach to standard harmony that people recognize/use. its based on garrison fewell youtube tutorials - that's where i found this picture presented clearly for the first time.

if you build triads from 1/3/5/7 of a minor 7 sound you get a series of sounds that could be said to be the melodic extensions of the minor sound.

but this series of sounds (and musical phrases built around these four triads) - can be looked at (heard) in lots of different ways.

if its a g natural minor sound then it could be heard as:

Bb maj. - (first inversion of g min - relative maj)

or - C7 - (the 'five' of g min7)

or - E min7b5 - (first inversion of C7 (perhaps)

or - Bb maj7b5 - (E min7b5 with b5 in base (?)

or - D min7 - (first inversion of Bb maj or second inversion of original g min)

or - F maj7 (second inversion of Bb maj)


so if the key is F - this g natural minor sound is covering everything!
you can hear the g natural minor sound with its melodic extensions as any of the seven chords in F. So the only fundamental sound-family left out is the altered dominant family.

that blows my mind - i can't believe, after treating the distinctions between the seven chords as really basic, that i've found a single sound that incorporates all of them. in particular it gives me my five sound as well as my one sound. wow.

the altered dominant sounds come from a min 6 chord and its melodic extensions built on the b9 of the V chord (Db in the key of F). there are more altered dominant sounds that come from a min 6 chord built on the fourth degree (Bb in the key of F).

So that's everything (barring some harmonic esoterica) - and the guitarist is working on two basic sounds - in the key of F: G min7 and its melodic extensions and Db min6 and its melodic extensions).


i'm not suggesting this is the key to anything etc. etc. just that its kind of striking. i've been working with it for a while and its helped me focus on the key movements in a tune without sacrificing colour and harmonic interest. i think my favorite part of it is how it has helped me get the juice out of unaltered dominant chords.

sorry for the long post - hope its not hopelessly unclear.

I'm not really getting the point of this, could you point to the GF youtube where he may explain it a little better? I have my own little way of seeing things in terms of m7 or m6, but I think it's a bit different...

[rmsmarr]

Thanks for the lead Groyniad. Great stuff. Opened a few doors.

[Groyniad]

I'm not really getting the point of this, could you point to the GF youtube where he may explain it a little better? I have my own little way of seeing things in terms of m7 or m6, but I think it's a bit different...

this is the first of two or three vids that set out the basic ideas - and perhaps most importantly give you a sort of nice melodic way to play through the four triads that melodically extend the original sound (so you're not learning it all with musically dead 'arpeggio' type patterns). one thing i didn't say first time is that this is THE way to extend the sound of the 2 chord - to get all the 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths coming out - each of these sounds now has its own triad so its MUCH easier to build melodic ideas that extend the core sound of the 2 chord. (i spent so long doing 9th arpeggios etc. but with very little pay-off in terms of my ability to come up with nice extended melodic sounds).

i should say too that for me the triplet figure that garrison uses to play the notes of the four triads and the sweep picking technique he explained that goes with it had the effect of transforming my physical relation to the neck. i've learned to pick much much better - and now my phrases move up and down the fretboard covering more ground (going from lower to higher in a single phrase) and sounding less boxed in and static.

one of the things i've loved most about this phase of my learning (i've been playing seriously for twenty five years now - yikes!!!) is the way it has combined a re-imagining of the sounds i'm after with a fundamental development to the physical technique i'm using to pick and phrase. i've always played out of a very hard-core late forties be-bop bag (man) - bud powell and charlie parker are my two total heroes (hardly original i know) - and this approach which uses the 2 chord as the key to everything is allowing me to access a much more blue-note sound (if you will) - more wes and less powell. combining both approaches is producing some good sounds (i think)

[Groyniad]

i really hope it helps - thanks for the reply rmsmarr

[princeplanet]

i really hope it helps - thanks for the reply rmsmarr

Thanks, will check this out, but before I do , when you say more "blue note" do you mean Blue Note the label, or blue note as in b3, b5 or b7 ?

[princeplanet]

this is the first of two or three vids that set out the basic ideas - and perhaps most importantly give you a sort of nice melodic way to play through the four triads that melodically extend the original sound (so you're not learning it all with musically dead 'arpeggio' type patterns). one thing i didn't say first time is that this is THE way to extend the sound of the 2 chord - to get all the 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths coming out - each of these sounds now has its own triad so its MUCH easier to build melodic ideas that extend the core sound of the 2 chord. (i spent so long doing 9th arpeggios etc. but with very little pay-off in terms of my ability to come up with nice extended melodic sounds).

i should say too that for me the triplet figure that garrison uses to play the notes of the four triads and the sweep picking technique he explained that goes with it had the effect of transforming my physical relation to the neck. i've learned to pick much much better - and now my phrases move up and down the fretboard covering more ground (going from lower to higher in a single phrase) and sounding less boxed in and static.

one of the things i've loved most about this phase of my learning (i've been playing seriously for twenty five years now - yikes!!!) is the way it has combined a re-imagining of the sounds i'm after with a fundamental development to the physical technique i'm using to pick and phrase. i've always played out of a very hard-core late forties be-bop bag (man) - bud powell and charlie parker are my two total heroes (hardly original i know) - and this approach which uses the 2 chord as the key to everything is allowing me to access a much more blue-note sound (if you will) - more wes and less powell. combining both approaches is producing some good sounds (i think)

Couldn't find part 3 (does he mention the m6 thing in that?), but I get it, basically diatonic extensions... I think we all have a way to conceive an approach to extensions, mine is to learn the diatonic 13th arpeggios for the key of the moment in the position of the moment, and create lines from these.

For a basic example, lets say you're in the key of C and in the 5th position. If you play ascending a c e g b d f a c or b d f a c e g b, these two 13th arps are actually the 13th arp for every diatonic chord in the key. Creating melodies or lines using these by ear will soon tell you how to handle the tricky 11th. Of course you can always sub to the key a 5th above to get the #11. Joining these "shapes" by sliding between the 5 positions (2 shapes per position) gets you those GF lines, and much more as well, IMHO.

[Groyniad]

Thanks, will check this out, but before I do , when you say more "blue note" do you mean Blue Note the label, or blue note as in b3, b5 or b7 ?

i just mean the label - silly way to put it really. i just meant more 1962 than 1949

[Groyniad]

by the way there's another dimension to this that i associate with Barry Harris. he has these two very important chord scales - maj and min 6th diminished scales. These scales are based on the major scale with an added passing tone between 5 and 6 - and the harmonic minor scale with an added passing tone between 5 and 6. These are amazing amazing chord scales - as soon as you play them its obvious how important they are harmonically. you get inversions of the original 6th sound and in between each the same diminished passing chord - and of course it all falls in the right part of the bar because of that extra note between 5 and 6. these allow you to unpack the two sounds i've been claiming can be heard as fundamental to diatonic harmony.

[edh]

Thanks Groyniad.

[princeplanet]

by the way there's another dimension to this that i associate with Barry Harris. he has these two very important chord scales - maj and min 6th diminished scales. These scales are based on the major scale with an added passing tone between 5 and 6 - and the harmonic minor scale with an added passing tone between 5 and 6. These are amazing amazing chord scales - as soon as you play them its obvious how important they are harmonically. you get inversions of the original 6th sound and in between each the same diminished passing chord - and of course it all falls in the right part of the bar because of that extra note between 5 and 6. these allow you to unpack the two sounds i've been claiming can be heard as fundamental to diatonic harmony.

Yup, to say it differently for those confused- stick diminished chords as passing chords between all the inversions on the maj6 chord - the harmonised major bebop scale. Works for other bebop scales too.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hi !

for the first part of your explanation,it's not a G min natural,but a G Dorian,the II of Fmajor scale. So,you can replace G Dorian by all the others scales degrees.

You could do that for the Right melodic minor scales and the Harmonic minor scales,and other scales.It's the modality concept.
By example,G jazz min could be replaced by the second degree of the scale,A Dorian b2 (sus b9/13),the 3third degree,Bb Lydian augmented (Bb#4#5),etc: C7 Bartok,D myxolidian b6,E locrian 9 and F#7 altered

As for the second part of your text,why -in order to obtain altered scales
do you take Db m6?
The notes are Db-E-Ab-Bb-B

Taking E as root,you obtain 13 R 3 11+ 5
Taking Ab as root,you obtain 11 5+ R 9 9+
Taking Bb as root,you obtain 9+ 11+ b7 R b9
Taking B as root you have 9 11 13 7 R

If you want to produce alterd souds,take whatever degree of a melodic minor scale !

If by exemple ,you want a C7 altered, take one of the seven modes of Db jazz minor scale.It spells R 9 b3 4 5 6 7
If you want an C7 altered sound, C7 alt,you could thus take:
Db jazz min,Eb sus b9/13,Emaj7 #11#5,Gb7 11+(Bartok),Ab7 b6,Bb min7b5/9(Locrian 9)and,finally C7altered
You couls also take maj,min,augmented,dim triads in order to make polytonality,like the saxophonist Dennis Taylor.
Also quartal harmonies and the third mode of the Harmonic major scale(Super-phrygian

cheers
Hyppolyte Bergamotte

[Groyniad]

Hi !

for the first part of your explanation,it's not a G min natural,but a G Dorian,the II of Fmajor scale. So,you can replace G Dorian by all the others scales degrees.

You could do that for the Right melodic minor scales and the Harmonic minor scales,and other scales.It's the modality concept.
By example,G jazz min could be replaced by the second degree of the scale,A Dorian b2 (sus b9/13),the 3third degree,Bb Lydian augmented (Bb#4#5),etc: C7 Bartok,D myxolidian b6,E locrian 9 and F#7 altered

As for the second part of your text,why -in order to obtain altered scales
do you take Db m6?
The notes are Db-E-Ab-Bb-B

Taking E as root,you obtain 13 R 3 11+ 5
Taking Ab as root,you obtain 11 5+ R 9 9+
Taking Bb as root,you obtain 9+ 11+ b7 R b9
Taking B as root you have 9 11 13 7 R

If you want to produce alterd souds,take whatever degree of a melodic minor scale !

If by exemple ,you want a C7 altered, take one of the seven modes of Db jazz minor scale.It spells R 9 b3 4 5 6 7
If you want an C7 altered sound, C7 alt,you could thus take:
Db jazz min,Eb sus b9/13,Emaj7 #11#5,Gb7 11+(Bartok),Ab7 b6,Bb min7b5/9(Locrian 9)and,finally C7altered
You couls also take maj,min,augmented,dim triads in order to make polytonality,like the saxophonist Dennis Taylor.
Also quartal harmonies and the third mode of the Harmonic major scale(Super-phrygian

cheers
Hyppolyte Bergamotte

lots here that is very interesting - thanks! of course there are any number of ways to conceive alt. dom. sounds - the charm of this one is largely its simplicity. I can imagine musicians in the forties digging it (that is before there were music schools and jazz musicians were used to the idea that the music is technically complex).

the first bit about what kind of minor scale we're starting from is very interesting. my use of 'natural' was just mistaken - thanks for pointing that out. its the minor built on the second degree of the major scale - as you rightly say.

the rest is just a development of the picture i'm presenting. you've got two jazz minor (b3;#7) sounds one with its root on the b9 of the dom. sound (so #5 of the maj. sound) one with its root on the b7 of the dom. sound (that 'back-door substitution beloved of parker) (so the 4th of the maj sound). I just added that you can play min6 diminished chord scales (a la Barry Harris) from those two roots and thus 'unpack' the alt. dom. sound further. Your suggestion to 'unpack' the sounds by playing all their modes is one I had not thought of - but i will explore it - it sounds like a good idea.

perhaps it is important to say this:

i've spent most of my time trying to learn how to play the change - how to resolve 6 to 2; 2 to 5; 5 to 1 etc. etc. i've focused - very productively - on the change from one sound into another. this GF approach - based on using triads to open up the sound of the 2 chord - produces a different sort of subtler harmonic movement WITHIN a chord/sound. before i've had terrible trouble improvising with a static chord - now i've got ways to produce movement without a chord change by building phrases on these 4 triads. its making a huge difference to me.

[dasein]

all this info is good, but I will say that, for the most part, Barry Harris uses maj6dim and min6dim scales mostly for playing chords.

you definitely COULD use it for soloing, but I don't think that's how Barry uses it for the most part

his approach to playing over dominant chords is mostly about using other dom7's a m3 apart (G7/Bb7/Db7/E7)

for an altered sound, he would play Db7 over G7. add some passing notes from the key of C

[Groyniad]

all this info is good, but I will say that, for the most part, Barry Harris uses maj6dim and min6dim scales mostly for playing chords.

you definitely COULD use it for soloing, but I don't think that's how Barry uses it for the most part

his approach to playing over dominant chords is mostly about using other dom7's a m3 apart (G7/Bb7/Db7/E7)

for an altered sound, he would play Db7 over G7. add some passing notes from the key of C

great! and of course - exactly right.

that Db7 is Abm6 in disguise (or the other way round) - the crucial raised seven of the Abm6 is the equally crucial flatted 5 of the Db7 etc. etc.

he also has a great way to extend what people call the 'be-bop scale' by adding (in a very particular order) more passing notes - and he's got a great rule (or two) for working with all these slips and chromatic bits.

to enlarge - i've got a series of dvd's through his teaching website that are just wonderful. you can take or leave his 'approach' (i love it because i love his Bud Powell sound) but just to hear him sing all his lines to the class is a joy. he prefaces many of his ideas with 'you could say....' and then he sings a perfect be-bop idea.

and those scales are at the heart of his accompaniment and arranging etc. - and they really offer you all sorts of simple and effective movement for chordal work - but its all part and parcel of a sort of intense and relentless forward motion that drives both the accompaniment and the melodic inventions (and strikes me as the most appealing and characteristic feature of classic be-bop).

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

"for an altered sound, he would play Db7 over G7. add some passing notes from the key of C"

in fact,Dasein,playing Db7 over G7 does not give an"altered mode ,the seven degree of the Melodic minor scale,but the Bartok mode,the fourth degree of the scale.
Now,if you consider the word "altered" as non diatonic notes in whatever scale,you're ok

in each case,I'll have a look to Barry Harris concepts.It seems,buddies,that you are very excited about!

cheers to all
Hyppolyte Bergamotte

[dasein]

"for an altered sound, he would play Db7 over G7. add some passing notes from the key of C"

in fact,Dasein,playing Db7 over G7 does not give an"altered mode ,the seven degree of the Melodic minor scale,but the Bartok mode,the fourth degree of the scale.
Now,if you consider the word "altered" as non diatonic notes in whatever scale,you're ok

in each case,I'll have a look to Barry Harris concepts.It seems,buddies,that you are very excited about!

cheers to all
Hyppolyte Bergamotte

we're not really thinking of them as modes, or indeed thinking about any modes at all

Db7 = Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb. over G7, that's b5, b6, b7, 7(!), b9, b3, 3

every thing looks good except that 7. but if we raise it from a Gb to a G... ah, much better. so yes, one way of looking at it is as Db Lydian dominant / Lydian b7 / whatever you want to call it

but i'm still thinking of it as "Db7 with various passing notes" because:

- Db7 turns into Ddim7 by changing one note, and I always want easy access to that classic bebop dim sound
- the notes in Db7 are the most characteristic "altered" notes: the infamous b9 and b5 sounds that define the genre, plus the guide tones.

if you want to think of things modally, more power to you, but personally I find it pretty much impossible to navigate through modes when playing something like "Donna Lee" at quick tempos

for other kinds of jazz, modal thinking probably is the best way to go. but Barry Harris' stuff is bebop, bebop, bebop, all the time

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

not so sure, Dortmund..
in an interview of Mike Stern,a few years ago,about his CD "Standards"he revealed that all his be-bop improvisation was based over modality..
cheers
HB

[Groyniad]

we're not really thinking of them as modes, or indeed thinking about any modes at all

Db7 = Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb. over G7, that's b5, b6, b7, 7(!), b9, b3, 3

every thing looks good except that 7. but if we raise it from a Gb to a G... ah, much better. so yes, one way of looking at it is as Db Lydian dominant / Lydian b7 / whatever you want to call it

but i'm still thinking of it as "Db7 with various passing notes" because:

- Db7 turns into Ddim7 by changing one note, and I always want easy access to that classic bebop dim sound
- the notes in Db7 are the most characteristic "altered" notes: the infamous b9 and b5 sounds that define the genre, plus the guide tones.

if you want to think of things modally, more power to you, but personally I find it pretty much impossible to navigate through modes when playing something like "Donna Lee" at quick tempos

for other kinds of jazz, modal thinking probably is the best way to go. but Barry Harris' stuff is bebop, bebop, bebop, all the time

+1 to all that

and this too:

the point about the min7/min6 (where the former is a minor sound with flatted 7 and the latter with sharped 7) thing is that it DRASTICALLY simplifies the picture.

one of the most musically satisfying things i've done in ages is to re-hear a phrase i've played over Bb maj7 as a phrase over C7 (C7 for god's sake - that's not just the 2 chord over the 1 chord its the 2 chord turned dominant over the one chord!!!!). these are fantastic sounds - i think. and you can re-hear them again and again - over the 4 chord with sharped 11 - over the half dim chord built on the flatted five of Bb maj. over the 3 chord. over the 6 chord.

perhaps not really over the dominant chord (F7) - which should come as some relief! for that we need C min and ITS harmonic extensions.

so for any key-centre we've got two fundamental sounds (jeez) - in Bb: Gmin7 and its harmonic extensions; Cmin7 and its harmonic extensions

then there are the altered sounds for which we turn to the min6 sound built on the b9 of the five chord (and the lovely little min6 chord built on the 7th of the five chord too)

this clip is meant to give an example of an idea that is - at once - an idea over the 1 chord and an idea of the 2 dom chord (Bb maj/C7). i just love how that dominant sound sounds after you've heard the idea as a major idea

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hi Groyniad!

I analysed your post and your utube video

Effectively,if you play on the sixth note of the Bbmaj scale,G,a G min6b7,G Eolian, beginning on the note C,you obtain an hybrid C7(no3) mode:R 9 9+ 11 5 13 b7, C79#913 no3, a"mixed" Bbmaj/C7

If you play on the sixth note of the Bb maj scale G, a Gmin67=the first degree of G melodic minor scale, the G Jazz min mode,with beginning on note C,you'll obtain the IVth mode of G melodic minor, a C Lydian b7(Bartok mode)R 9 3 11+ 5 13 b7

If you play on the fourth note of Bbmaj scale,Eb,a Cmin 6b7,C Dorian,beginning on the note Eb,you'll obtain the Eb Lydian mode of Bbmaj scale 6 7 R 9 3 11+ 5

If you play on the fourth note of Bbmaj scale,Eb, a Cmin67 =the first degree of Cmelodic minor scale,the C Jazz minor,beginning on the note Eb,you'll retreive the IIId mode of this scale,the Eb Lydian augmented R 9 3 11+ 5+ 6 7

It's just an intuitive manner to see the Major and Melodic minor scales, minus your first example on C7 9#913 no3,what you call a Bbmaj/C7,well done !

You could also in your system retreive sounds of the Harmonic minor scale,playing on a Bbmaj scale Gmin b6 7 and Cmin b6 7

cheers
HB

NB Have a look on my explanation of the Rick Stone papers on the Sixth/Diminished Scale on the Showcase forum

[Groyniad]

Hi Groyniad!

I analysed your post and your utube video

Effectively,if you play on the sixth note of the Bbmaj scale,G,a G min6b7,G Eolian, beginning on the note C,you obtain an hybrid C7(no3) mode:R 9 9+ 11 5 13 b7, C79#913 no3, a"mixed" Bbmaj/C7

If you play on the sixth note of the Bb maj scale G, a Gmin67=the first degree of G melodic minor scale, the G Jazz min mode,with beginning on note C,you'll obtain the IVth mode of G melodic minor, a C Lydian b7(Bartok mode)R 9 3 11+ 5 13 b7

If you play on the fourth note of Bbmaj scale,Eb,a Cmin 6b7,C Dorian,beginning on the note Eb,you'll obtain the Eb Lydian mode of Bbmaj scale 6 7 R 9 3 11+ 5

If you play on the fourth note of Bbmaj scale,Eb, a Cmin67 =the first degree of Cmelodic minor scale,the C Jazz minor,beginning on the note Eb,you'll retreive the IIId mode of this scale,the Eb Lydian augmented R 9 3 11+ 5+ 6 7

It's just an intuitive manner to see the Major and Melodic minor scales, minus your first example on C7 9#913 no3,what you call a Bbmaj/C7,well done !

You could also in your system retreive sounds of the Harmonic minor scale,playing on a Bbmaj scale Gmin b6 7 and Cmin b6 7

cheers
HB

NB Have a look on my explanation of the Rick Stone papers on the Sixth/Diminished Scale on the Showcase forum

great stuff HB! thanks for your input - it will take me a little while to digest. its amazing what happens when you (sort of) leave out what i always took to be about the most important note in the dominant sound - the 3rd. one thing i'd like to say about the sounds that get generated is that they are classic - i.e. i'm not trying to find new sounds - but good ways to get to very well established (be-bop) sounds.
thanks again for your interest!

[dasein]

not so sure, Dortmund..
in an interview of Mike Stern,a few years ago,about his CD "Standards"he revealed that all his be-bop improvisation was based over modality..
cheers
HB

oh, I don't doubt that. it seems like just about all those 70's Berklee guys (Stern, Scofield, Gary Burton) use modal / chord scale theory almost exclusively

i'm not going to discourage anyone from using anything. in fact, there are a couple instances where I think modal/chord scale thinking is very useful:

- certain tunes pretty much require modal/CST thinking, whether it's tunes with very static harmonic backgrounds (So What, Little Sunflower, Freedom Jazz Dance) or certain tunes that were clearly written with modes in mind (lots of Wayne Shorter tunes, Joe Henderson tunes, Kenny Wheeler tunes, etc).

- modal/chord scale theory is also really useful when you want to play something that doesn't necessarily outline the changes. for example, the first five bars of "All the Things You Are"

| Fm7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 | Dbmaj7 |

it's all in Ab major/ionian (F Aeolian, Bb dorian, Eb mixolydian, etc). if I just stick to playing ideas in Ab major, the notes will sound right, but depending on what I play, it might not sound like i'm "playing the changes"

but sometimes that's OK. I could play different motivic ideas in Ab major, not really concerned with the changes. the strength of the line, the coherency of the ideas, and the development/narrative of the motives can carry the solo through - guys like Sonny Rollins are masters of this type of playing

but if I do want to sound like i'm playing the changes, then modal/chord scale thinking isn't really my approach. if it is your approach and it works for you, more power to you. the correct approach is the one that works

[Groyniad]

oh, I don't doubt that. it seems like just about all those 70's Berklee guys (Stern, Scofield, Gary Burton) use modal / chord scale theory almost exclusively

i'm not going to discourage anyone from using anything. in fact, there are a couple instances where I think modal/chord scale thinking is very useful:

- certain tunes pretty much require modal/CST thinking, whether it's tunes with very static harmonic backgrounds (So What, Little Sunflower, Freedom Jazz Dance) or certain tunes that were clearly written with modes in mind (lots of Wayne Shorter tunes, Joe Henderson tunes, Kenny Wheeler tunes, etc).

- modal/chord scale theory is also really useful when you want to play something that doesn't necessarily outline the changes. for example, the first five bars of "All the Things You Are"

| Fm7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 | Dbmaj7 |

it's all in Ab major/ionian (F Aeolian, Bb dorian, Eb mixolydian, etc). if I just stick to playing ideas in Ab major, the notes will sound right, but depending on what I play, it might not sound like i'm "playing the changes"

but sometimes that's OK. I could play different motivic ideas in Ab major, not really concerned with the changes. the strength of the line, the coherency of the ideas, and the development/narrative of the motives can carry the solo through - guys like Sonny Rollins are masters of this type of playing

but if I do want to sound like i'm playing the changes, then modal/chord scale thinking isn't really my approach. if it is your approach and it works for you, more power to you. the correct approach is the one that works

Dasein - i'm right there with you with this. sonny makes it work so beautifully - and i've found a new route into his playing through these triad-based sounds. combining this more open sounding concept with the hitting-the-change-hard approach i've always used before generates a lot of good ideas.

[Groyniad]

If you really want to open up the playing and stop that horrible repetitive change running that so many people teach and play, then do the unthinkable: Play a scale. Use a scalar approach which will INSTANTLY give you more of a melodic sound. Of course before you do this you need to have change running under your hands. Then use scales and actually sing a song instead of this horrible incessant change running.

of course we don't want to be running changes (though parker puts a chord tone on the first and third beats of almost every measure)

but the more common problem seems to me to be not being able to make the changes (at least not properly)

there aren't many guitarists i've heard recently who could play rhythm and make the changes come across

and horn players have the disease too

if you do play clusters of consecutive sounds (i just can't say 'play scales') then you'd better make them pivot on the right sounds (chord tones) or you won't sound melodic