Melodic use of chord tones?

**musicjohnny** · 01-29-2011, 07:16 PM

ksjazzguitar

You're way too argumentative and ambitious in nearly all of your posts. It's annoying and it doesn't achieve anything except kill the vibes.
Relax... It's just the internet.

**ksjazzguitar** · 01-29-2011, 09:54 PM

Yeah, I'm with Beaumont - this was the way to play for much of jazz history. Pretty much anything up into the 50s. Even after that it is still a part of the language of many players.

I guess I don't understand what the point of the question, "are there any bop players, or those we KNOW to use a chord-tone centric approach who solo with a reasonably small tessitura?" I think if would be pretty boring if someone just noodled around within an octave all the time. Most improvisers want to stretch into a greater range so they can get more contrast in the contour of the lines. Contour is an important part of a solo - peaks and valleys, unexpected leaps that create an implied rhythm over the top of the line. The peaks and the tops of leaps can even be used to create a compound melody. I'm not sure why anyone would give up such and important and exciting element to a solo.

I don't think you'll find many that stay within an octave - for good reasons. I think that your time would be better spent just focusing on good soloists with a good use of range and translate that to the guitar.

musicjohnny - Someone took a cheap shot at me so I responded. Sorry if it killed your "vibe" - I didn't realize I had so much power.

Peace,
Kevin

**Reg** · 01-30-2011, 12:15 PM

With reference to chord and non chord tones in jazz context... There's a difference between composing and soloing, at least for me personally, and how I hear improvisation in the last 40 or 50 years . When I scored for a commercial , video or whatever, when my theme or melody had notes outside of the standard harmonic harmonic area ,(everything's usually written out and changes are usually only for reference), I might simply be developing the theme/melody and hearing/composing horizontally using methods of embellishment, or development. But when I solo, that simple out of harmonic area note is no longer simply a part of horizontal or melodic embellishment, it now also represents a vertical harmonic structure, (chord), or a chord pattern, or what ever my ears choose to hear for improvisation. Obviously context has influence and what your ears have the ability to hear. Some players sound beautiful but very simple, some players sound beautiful and very complex ... some players are able to play simple and complex... my point is there can be, and usually is much more to chromatic notes than melodic practice... So as to Shadow of the suns original question...
There are two methods of discussion, vertical and horizontal but when we play/improve they become one, in my opinion. Reg

**ksjazzguitar** · 01-30-2011, 12:29 PM

Hmm, I don't tend to think of my jazz composing and soloing as two completely different things. To me they are the same things - the same basic process. Perhaps the compositions have more constructive unity, and the solos have a bit more flash, but I tend to detest gratuitous flash so I'm kind of going for the same thing. Maybe it's just me.

I do agree with the other point - these are just artificial categories that we are creating. That is fine for analysis and practice, but when you're on stage, just play. If you're playing well, the boundaries should somewhat, if not completely, dissolve.

Peace,
Kevin

**lkmuller** · 01-30-2011, 02:06 PM

Reg, thanks for your input, it is greatly appreciated by all here. Do you frequent any other forums?

**Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D** · 02-02-2011, 03:27 AM

The nice thing about chord-scale theory is that is is trying to get away from the chord symbols meaning a very specific chord... I read through the piano transcriptions of Bill Evans's solo on several tunes. He'd play the same left hand voicing on tunes that said Bb7, Bb9, Bb13, and Bb13+11. They were all Mixolydian (and Lydian Dominant on the +11) chords... It was b7 9 3 13... rootless and versatile. The right hand lines outlined all kinds of extensions from the same scale that were not included in the symbols in some cases. They are a launching point... but I think a Bb7 going to a minor (or modal interchange) needs a huge distinction from going to a major. The chord-scales are typically Mixolydian, Lydian Dom, or HW dim going to a major, and HM or ALT going to a minor (or modal interchange). This really simplifies things. Bb7b9, Bb7Alt, Bb7b13 all mean HM or MM, and Bb13, Bb13b9, and Bb7+11 mean the major kind... just things I observed in my piano hero... Hope that helps... a little OT...

**ksjazzguitar** · 02-02-2011, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

The nice thing about chord-scale theory is that is is trying to get away from the chord symbols meaning a very specific chord...

Right, but those of us can still get away from "a very specific" chord. We can think about that other chord and build off those chord tones. I (personally) find the chord/scale approach to have fewer opportunities - it all just kind of sounds the same, depending on the scale you choose. Some of us just like getting back to thinking about the chord notes and playing the chord changes. Some of us got bored with the wishy-washy, pave over everything with a scale sound that everyone seems to like. If it works for you, go for it. As for me, when I finally got away from that, that's when things finally started coming together.

Peace,
Kevin

**mr. beaumont** · 02-02-2011, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

The nice thing about chord-scale theory is that is is trying to get away from the chord symbols meaning a very specific chord...

I get what you're saying, but I don't think any good player takes the chord symbol in a chart as "law," And there's really no reason chord scale theory is any more liberating than any other approach in that situation.

I maintain there's no one correct approach, just approaches that make more sense in given situations--and if it makes sense to you personally, then it's the right choice.