lydian pentatonic scale

[orasnon]

I was just reading about Woody Shaw and his innovative use of the Lydian Pentatonic scale in jazz improv. Can anyone give me a (brief) lesson on what scale this is, and under what conditions it is applied? Also, perhaps some listening suggestions? Thanks for taking the time....

[Aristotle]

I'd like to hear what it is, also. Since what is called the pentatonic on this forum doesn't have the fourth degree fo the scale in it, I wonder how would you work in a Lydian note #4 (#11). Perhaps the D pent over a C?

[dyross]

According to bmusic - Modes, Chapter 5 the Lydian Pentatonic has tones 1, 3, #4, 6 and 7 of the Lydian mode. Let's compare:

C major:             C D E F  G A B
C major pentatonic:  C D E    G A
C lydian pentatonic: C   E F#   A B
D major pentatonic:    D E F#   A B

The D major pentatonic actually looks the most interesting, as it has the 3, M7, 9, #11, and 13 of C Major. It differs from C lydian pentatonic in by replacing the root with the 9th, a good trade IMO. Admittedly, the formula I found in the link above might not be the one Woody Shaw uses, but that's my 2 cents.

[JohnW400]

According to bmusic - Modes, Chapter 5 the Lydian Pentatonic has tones 1, 3, #4, 6 and 7 of the Lydian mode. Let's compare:

C major:             C D E F  G A B
C major pentatonic:  C D E    G A
C lydian pentatonic: C   E F#   A B
D major pentatonic:    D E F#   A B

The D major pentatonic actually looks the most interesting, as it has the 3, M7, 9, #11, and 13 of C Major. It differs from C lydian pentatonic in by replacing the root with the 9th, a good trade IMO. Admittedly, the formula I found in the link above might not be the one Woody Shaw uses, but that's my 2 cents.

It's also one of the modes of what is called the Kumoi pentatonic

A B C E F#

It may have other names. It has a minor 6/9 sound and yields a bunch of useful arpeggios such as a mi11b5. as well as the lydian sound (ma13#11)

You could also think of it as a major pentatonic with a b3 so in C

CD E GA
CD Eb GA

Lots of good panditonic chords in this one too

[orasnon]

Thanks for the info, it has a very interesting sound -- if only I could hear a concrete example of this in a Woody Shaw tune, I'd be stoked!

Shaw is a genius! I've begun to explore his style, and its already leaving an impact on my note selection.

Check out this video of Anthony Braxton singing the praises of Woody. Braxton makes the claim that many contemporary contemporary musicians don't even realize they are mining the innovations of Woody. At around 2:45, he starts talking about the "lydian pentatonic".....but alas much too briefly.

[randalljazz]

happy hunting:

WOODYSHAW.COM :: Transcriptions

[JakeAcci]

I use that Kumoi pent all the time. Great scale. Starting on A as it was written above it works great on:

Am

Cmaj7 (#11)

F#m7b5

D9 or D9#11

Ab7"alt" - more specifically Ab7 #5 b9 #9

B7sus4b9

E "aeolian"

probably some others I'm forgetting. It's very pretty, melodic to my ears...it's actually my go-to grab for an altered sound.

[FatJeff]

Shaw is a genius!

You got that right!

[Aristotle]

The D major pentatonic actually looks the most interesting, as it has the 3, M7, 9, #11, and 13 of C Major. It differs from C lydian pentatonic in by replacing the root with the 9th, a good trade IMO.

In some primers on using pentatonic scales, for a C maj 7th harmony, the D major is usually third on the inside-outside spectrum, coming after C and G.

[rlemos]

Hi, if you are interested in thinking about lydian pentatonic scale possibilities in the context of a "system" or "approach" to jazz improvisation focusing on pentatonics, you might be interested in my book, "Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts: A Pentatonic Approach to Improvisation". An important feature of this approach is the focus on 2-notes-per-string. For details, check out:

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

I address an approach to Lydian Pentatonic scales in 4 chapters.

Chapter 5:The Lydian Pentatonic Scale: This is more focused on a simplified approach to dealing with lydian major chords. The scale itself does not contain the #4. It relies on the the background chord to give the lydian sound.

Chapter 15: Lydian Pentatonic Scale Substitutions: This chapter shows 7 different pentatonic scales that can be used over a lydian major chord. Four of the scales do not include the #4. Three scales do include the #4.

Chapter 22: Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale: This chapter covers two specific lydian pentatonic scales (as opposed to substitute scales)--Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale and the Lydian #11 Pentatonic Scale.

Once again, these chapters are in the context of a complete system of jazz improvisation that uses pentatonic scales exclusively.

Regards,

Ron

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Chapter 22: Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale: This chapter covers two specific lydian pentatonic scales (as opposed to substitute scales)--Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale and the Lydian #11 Pentatonic Scale.

I was never very good at math, but are you saying the Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale and the Lydian #11 Pentatonic Scale are different?

[rlemos]

Hi, great question. What is the difference between #4 and #11? I am not a music theortician so someone else would need to chime in on this difference from a more academic perspective. My approach is based on what works at a gig. I think of each of my pentatonic scales as "colors" and shades of color. I see (and hear) lydian as a "color" with various shades. That is the basis of my earlier post. In my book I show various shades of "lydian" and how they would be applied to the "canvas" of a real tune or chord progression. While the #4 and #11 are the same notes, the difference I hear is what octive they are placed in and if there are other chord extensions in the sound. My Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale (1 3 #4 5 7) does not include a higher extension than a major 7th. My Lydian #11 Pentatonic Scale (1 2/9 3 #11/#4 7) includes the 9th. If you think of this scale as a stacked arpeggio (no 5th) it would go: 1 3 7 9 #11. I agree with you that this is too much "math". In my approach, I stress thinking in terms of pentatonic scales and hearing how various "pentatonic colors" sound over specific chords. Hope this helps. Ron

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Thanks. I appreciate that any extensive pentatonic scale system is going to have to have naming conventions, and that you can't please all the people all the time.

[mr. beaumont]

Hi, great question. What is the difference between #4 and #11? I am not a music theortician so someone else would need to chime in on this difference from a more academic perspective. My approach is based on what works at a gig. I think of each of my pentatonic scales as "colors" and shades of color. I see (and hear) lydian as a "color" with various shades. That is the basis of my earlier post. In my book I show various shades of "lydian" and how they would be applied to the "canvas" of a real tune or chord progression. While the #4 and #11 are the same notes, the difference I hear is what octive they are placed in and if there are other chord extensions in the sound. My Lydian #4 Pentatonic Scale (1 3 #4 5 7) does not include a higher extension than a major 7th. My Lydian #11 Pentatonic Scale (1 2/9 3 #11/#4 7) includes the 9th. If you think of this scale as a stacked arpeggio (no 5th) it would go: 1 3 7 9 #11. I agree with you that this is too much "math". In my approach, I stress thinking in terms of pentatonic scales and hearing how various "pentatonic colors" sound over specific chords. Hope this helps. Ron

It might be too much math, and not a convention all would get, but it makes logical sense to me--I like it.

[orasnon]

Thanks Ron! Sounds like great stuff; I"m going on Amazon immediately after this for your book....

[rlemos]

Hi orasnon, You are most welcome. Please email me ([email protected]) to let me know how you are doing with my approach. Best wishes, Ron

[JonnyPac]

I really dig Woody Shaw too. I found him on some of Andrew Hill's late 60's sessions. Check out Hill's Lift Every Voice. It is really cool with an 11 piece choir. Shaw's albums are great too.

The Jazz Theory Book seems to mention that he uses the standard pentatonics just set against different parts of the harmony. My favorite is the minor pentatonic starting on the iii of the key. For instance, Em Pent over FMaj7 is the 7th 9th 3rd +4 6. Pretty sweet, as I'm sure you all know.

Bill Evans would end his songs with a lot of cool pentatonic washes. It reminds me of Debussy's preludes.

[orasnon]

@JohnnyPac: I've actually copped some pentatonic ideas (sequences and arps) from Debussy's First Arabesque. Some very cool ideas, even on the left hand.

[JonnyPac]

Sweet! I got some from the Maiden w Flaxen Hair prelude. Cool stuff!