Diminished Scales vs Symmetrical Scales

[ksjazzguitar]

'Cerebral' is a synonym of 'intellectual,'

Actually, my dictionary's first definitions talk about the brain and cerebrum. It's the later definitions that talk about the intellect. However...

...you can't possibly think that all music is intellectual. ...

If you don't mind, I'll be the judge of what I can and can't think. And I mean exactly that. I don't think you can create a melody without intelligence. "Musical Intelligence" is exactly one of the intelligences that is listed in the modern theory of multiple intelligences that evolved out of Gardner's original cognitive theories (Along with spatial, linguistic, kinesthetic, logical/mathematical, interpersonal, intrapersonal, naturalistic, and existential.) This notion that when a scholar creates a melody, it is intellectual (because presumably he is mixing in some mathematical intelligence) and that when some tribesman does it it is somehow non-intellectual - that is silly and based on a very old-fashioned idea of what intelligence means. For most of history, western thinkers thought of "logical/mathematical" as the "real" intelligence, simply because it was one area in which they were far more advanced than some of the primitive cultures they encountered.

If you defined "intellectual" as "doing math problems" then I guess you were right. But modern psychology and cognitive science takes a much broader understanding of the word. Again, I think that you are making arbitrary distinctions based on outmoded ways of thinking. (Like we all do if we are not careful.)

But I guess we'll have to disagree.

As much fun as this verbal bantering is, I must get ready for a gig. ttfn

Peace,
Kevin

[JohnW400]

Not so as it matters, to me. I do think it's worth finding a way to distinguish between them, if only in your own head, but I didn't mean to question your approach in that sense, really. What I meant was, I don't get the appropriateness of using a diminished scale over a 7b9 most of the time. I can see how it is right in certain circumstances - Jobim often sticks a #4/b5 in the melody over a 7b9, you haven't got much choice but to use a diminished - but not in all. I'm flicking through a fake book now looking for examples and I'm coming to the conclusion that this might be a bebop thing, something to do with the ubiquitous bebop flat fifth, maybe? but I think it simply doesn't work for swing stuff, and I don't know whether contemporary jazz uses this particular bebop convention (if that's what it is), seems improbable, somehow - haven't things moved on since then? So I don't know how universally it should be used, and being so ignorant, I feel obliged to take the context into consideration.

Your right . Using this over a diminished or even 7b9 gets stale fast. Horn players dig it because it fits well over 4 different chords. One scale works for A7, C7, Eb7 and F#7.

But this is also what adds to the beauty of it. Put each of those triads over say the A bass or even A-G. F# over A7 sounds smokin'




[chord]

||---|--1|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|--1|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]



[chord]

||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--1|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]


When you get to C over A, make it over A and C# and you get a 7#9



[chord]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]


I like Eb over A especially resolving to E over D



[chord]

||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]


[chord]

||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|(2)|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]


This scale works great for 7b5, #11, 13 , +/- plus diminshed , mi7b5. However it is also , as you correctly point out, only one tool in the box.

Sco' uses the sh^t out of this scale in places you wouldn't expect to sound out. Use it on a IV chord of a blues (I'm sure you knew that already though)

[Reg]

In regards to natural and symmetrical scales or pitch patterns with reference to western culture where music is based on the octave , which is a 2:1 ratio in frequency, and the commonly used scale has 12 logarithmically even diversions of the octave, such that the equation for the frequency (F) of each note is as follows: F= k x 2 (n/12), where n is the number of pitches along the scale and k is taken to be the reference point of the scale, usually 440 Hz.... not to be confused with the Bohlen-Pierce scale that has pitches recurring at the 3:1 ratio ( tritave) which would have the frequency of each tone in the scale expressed by the following formula: F = k x 3 (n/13).... I'm sorry I'm beginning to fall asleep... what was the topic... I'll finish later... Best Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Yikes, Reg, what an edumacation you've got!

[Reg]

Hey BDLH... yea the only thing that saves me is I play lots of live jazz and drink lots of Guinness... I guess that's two things. Anyway that's what my Doctors tells me to do... do you need his #... Best Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Doctors are a sore point with me. Because I live in a small town, I'm always bumping into my doc, and he never fails to do a double-take like he can't believe that I'm still alive. I know you have hospital privileges Dr Rajabally! You'd know if I was on the slab!