Upper structure triads

[liponguitas]

I´ve been studying the upper structure triads, I searched for information in this forum and in the web, and information that my teacher gave me. So far, I studied the upper structures of the Maj7 chords and of the Altered chords. However, I think I'm not understanding how I can create new ideas in improvisation using this theory. The sounds that I get improving with the Maj7 chords upper structure triads don´t sound so great to my ear, and in the Altered chords, they seem too much "outside".Do you have some lines to illustrate how can I improve my improvisation using upper structure triads?

Sorry for my bad English, and for my ignorance in this subject.

[Reg]

You can call upper structure triads diatonic or non-diatonic. ex. Cmaj. ... play a Dmin triad to Fmaj Triad to Amin triad over the Cmaj. Their all diatonic triads.
Now over that same Cmaj chord play... Dmaj. triad to Emaj. triad to F#maj. triad, non-diatonic triads starting on D and moving up by maj. 2nds.
The triads you play over your base chord... are usually organized by some method... Dim. triads, or movement by min. 3rds. There are unlimited possibilities... Give me an example of what you would like to do and I'll give some examples... Best Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When I first started learning jazz even major seventh chords sounded bad to me! Maybe you have to let your ear catch up with what you are playing.

Aside from that, if you play a phrase that remains in the upper structure it might sound like it's not connecting with the underlying harmony. Try starting and ending with simpler chord tones (say 3rd and 7th) to ground the phrase.

As for altered chords, be sure to resolve that line, too.

[liponguitas]

Thanks Reg i will see how that non-diatonic triads starting on D and moving up by maj. 2nds sounds like.

Big daddy maybe your right. I need to work and wait untill my ear get used to these "new sounds".

[bako]

Lower Structure Triads
and a few other 3 note structures over a C bass note

Em/C
Edim/C
E/C
EMab5/C
Esus2/C
Gb7(no 5th)/C
Eb+/C
Eb/C
B/C
Ebm/C
Ebdim/C
G7(no 5th)/C
Gm7(no 5th)/C
Absus2/C

Mab5=13b5
sus2=125
7th(no 5th)=13b7
m7th(no 5th)=1b3b7

These are built from the 357 of 7th chords.

[derek]

Yes, the study of upper structure triads can be diatonic, or altered. With major triads, you can add othertriads to yeild 6/9, 9, 13, and other extensions without leaving the key.

The fun part, imo, is the altered dominant bitonals. It is a fairly thick subject, when you consider all the possibilities. I haven't fully explored it personally, but have studied it some. If I didn't have this day job getting in the way, maybe...never mind.

[Reg]

Hey Liponguitas.... What do you call an upper structure triad? Reg

[liponguitas]

Hi Reg,

I call a upper structure triad to a triad that begin in a chord tone and contains at least one extension. Like in CMaj chord we have G and A- as possible upper structures, for example. I think my problem is just how can i use them in a way that brings something new to my improvisation. But I will work harder an maybe something comes up.

Thanks guys.

[docbop]

To me an upper structure triad is like a CMa7 chord the upper structure triad for me is a D triad the 9, +11, 13. Its fun to practice playing only the upper triads on a chord progression.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

To me an upper structure triad is like a CMa7 chord the upper structure triad for me is a D triad the 9, +11, 13. Its fun to practice playing only the upper triads on a chord progression.

It's only a label, but anyway, which of these diatonic triads do you consider an "upper structure" triad over CMaj7? You may choose F/F# are you wish.

B-D-F[#]
D-F[#]-A
F[#]-A-C

[docbop]

It's only a label, but anyway, which of these diatonic triads do you consider an "upper structure" triad over CMaj7? You may choose F/F# are you wish.

B-D-F[#]
D-F[#]-A
F[#]-A-C

For me I use what I use because they are the color tones only. I leave chord tones to the arpeggios. As you put it, its all labels that we use to organize how we look at notes.

[Reg]

It's only a label, but anyway, which of these diatonic triads do you consider an "upper structure" triad over CMaj7? You may choose F/F# are you wish.

B-D-F[#]
D-F[#]-A
F[#]-A-C

I would think you would be talking about any triadic structure built from what you consider upper structure notes from a Cmaj7 chord. They could be built from actual pitch collections of Cmaj., Ionian or Lydian. as you mentioned, or simply have as root a note from those collections, ( Cmaj ), and have a different methodology for organizing 3rd and 5th of upper structure triads. But from your from your choices, #1 and #3 contain notes from Cmaj7 chord structure and #2 has what you appear to call only upper structure pitches... so I would guess you mean #2. Best Reg

[Reg]

For the record...I call all of those simply chord tones, but still use the term tensions for tones not spelled out by chord symbol, but implied. The problems begin when people get lazy with notation, or make mistakes and I would hope that the fact that someone simply notated something is not the theoretical system of determining or understanding what something is. Best Reg

[SteveCarter]

There's a free lesson about upper structure triads on the Keyboard Magazine site.
Sarah Jane Cion On Upper Structure Triads, Jon Regen
I also have some examples of melodic lines using upper structure triads, on my web site.

Steve

[Jazzaluk]

There's a free lesson about upper structure triads on the Keyboard Magazine site.
Sarah Jane Cion On Upper Structure Triads, Jon Regen
I also have some examples of melodic lines using upper structure triads, on my web site.

Steve

This is an interesting article. It seems that it may be advantageous to think this way on piano since there are two independent hands playing in polychords. I wonder if the voice leading with the right hand has similar functional harmony relationship as the left hand. Sort of thinking in two keys at the same time (in solo playing) or if this type of thinking is just to simplify the problem of keyboard notation for more modern sounds.

It seems, that since we have only one fretting hand that it may not be a very efficient way to think on the guitar. Is there some logic to how upper triads move or are they just another way of naming chords.

I'm probably missing something here, but it seems a bit cumbersome to think this way from an improvisation or solo perspective.

What, if any, are the advantages for guitar players?

[JohnW400]

@Jazzaluk

I think it makes it a bit easier especially when your looking to spice up arppegios .

It also presents possibilites for substitutions that one might not have thought of.

I use them all the time, especially in first inversion. In a ii V I you could play 3 triads and get a great sound

Cmi7 F7 Bbma7. Think in triad movement

x C G Bb Eb = Cmi7 or Eb/C
F x Gb A D = F13b9 or D/F
x Bb F A C = Bbma9 or F/Bb

You get an Eb triad moving to a D triad and then an F triad. YOu could go on for hours coming up with possibilities. Each one leads you to a new place.

Ex. once you see that D works well over F7 you can make new scales using just those notes:

F f# (A) C d Eb

You could run triads: F A C, F# A D, A C F , A D F#, C F A, D F# A or up on one down on another

F A C Eb F# A D ~ C A F Eb D A F#.


It's a welcome change from the standard scale chord thing. After a while you just start coming up with different things like 3 triads F , A and Eb against an A7 - A C F , C# E A, Eb G Bb and continue into the next octave.

[Jazzaluk]

Thanks JohnW400... Great primer...can't wait to give this a try. Sounds like a whole new world. I'll probably hurt my ears for a while, but I hope to find some of those ellusive sounds I have been searching for.

[SteveCarter]

I just posted a new lesson on my site, an introduction to using upper structure triads to create melodic figures.

http://koka.phpwebhosting.com/~scarterfrogs/lesson_triads_melodic_figures.html

I hope you find this helpful.

Steve

[liponguitas]

Thanks Steve, your lessons looks like exactly what I need.I'll give a better look at night.

[ubiguitar]

I published a book on harmonic approach to upper structures on guitar.
You can check it here: Triads over Bass: Slash Chords and Upper Structures
Try samples with bass note if you haven't a playback base.

Ale

[Jazzyteach65]

I´ve been studying the upper strucutre triads, i searched information in this forum and in the web, and information that my teacher gave me. So far I studied the upper structures of the Maj7 chords and of the Altered chords.However I think I'm not understanding how I can create new ideas in improvisation using this theory. The sounds that i get improving with the Maj7 chords upper structure triads don´t sound so great to my ear, and in the Altered chords they seem to much "outside".Do you have some lines to ilustrate how can I improve my improvisation using upper structure triads?

Sorry for my bad English, and for my ignorance in this subject.

Though I haven't even read this post, I can tell you with what I've been toying with for the last year-
Hold a static C maj7 or vamp it-

Play major triads in the cycle of FIFTHS,
you can only achieve this by using the fifth of the incumbant triad as the root of the next one
C E G B D F# A C# E G# B D# F# ECT

this is playing in thirds that yeild consonant triadic outlining talked about in the Lydian Chrom. Theory.

I use lines off of A and E major over Bill Evans' Peace Piece-a modal C ostinato vamp

There's a mathematical reason as to why certian upper structures sound "right" and consonant at certain relative registers, but they'll sound like crap in the irst octave, ex: c# sounds dissonat right next to c, but raise c# two octaves and play against a c major 7

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Is that Larry Carleton's uber arpeggio?

[Jazzyteach65]

Is that Larry Carleton's uber arpeggio?

I have no idea, never listened to him that much

[destinytot]

Though I haven't even read this post, I can tell you with what I've been toying with for the last year-
Hold a static C maj7 or vamp it-

Play major triads in the cycle of FIFTHS,
you can only achieve this by using the fifth of the incumbant triad as the root of the next one
C E G B D F# A C# E G# B D# F# ECT

this is playing in thirds that yeild consonant triadic outlining talked about in the Lydian Chrom. Theory.

I use lines off of A and E major over Bill Evans' Peace Piece-a modal C ostinato vamp

There's a mathematical reason as to why certian upper structures sound "right" and consonant at certain relative registers, but they'll sound like crap in the irst octave, ex: c# sounds dissonat right next to c, but raise c# two octaves and play against a c major 7

Triads in fifths... fabulous! Thank you!

Found two short videos that present the idea well:

[whiskey02]

There's a mathematical reason as to why certian upper structures sound "right" and consonant at certain relative registers, but they'll sound like crap in the irst octave, ex: c# sounds dissonat right next to c, but raise c# two octaves and play against a c major 7

Great point. I am not a big fan of playing way up high (above 14th fret or so) on the fretboard; just not crazy about the tone up there and don't "hear" things as well. Your point make me realize I need to put some effort into exploring up there. Thanks.