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Hi,
I have decided to take the advice of so many here and work on the arpeggio guide tone approach, which I tried many years ago and abandoned it for the key center approach which I play by.
I have been working for about 3 weeks now on using the arpeggio/guide tone approach on Autumn Leaves.
I would like to share with you some points regarding this process hoping that you can help me out and which may help others struggling with this very difficult approach.
1. I currently visualize the arps in some positions I still do not have them all down and found drawn to some positions more than others.
2. when playing a phrase on these arps I find that in each position I tend to form different kind of phrases
3. There is so much thinking (visualizing) going on that I find it very hard to really play melodically (play what I hear) as I'm on a path to certain notes so I find myself playing very technical.
4. on the chromatic descending chords at the end of the tune I have a hard time constructing any lines as the chords change so fast so I tend to switch to the key center approach there
5. I feel my self fighting the auto pilot urge to play the full triads or the full 4 notes of the arps
6. I find it very difficult to play fluidly.
I would appreciate it if you can listen to this take I did on autumn leaves and remark on how you think I need to proceed with the implementation.
the first chorus I improvise using the arpeggio/guide tone, the second chorus I improvise using the familiar key center (which is how I play) and the rest is using the arpeggio/guide tone.
au1.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage
10xLast edited by jayx123; 10-15-2010 at 05:49 AM.
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10-15-2010 05:47 AM
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Nice work. I'm a much less accomplished player than you, so you should interpret my comments accordingly.
I liked both versions but I thought that v2 was less consistent than v1. The best bits of v2 are as good or better than v1, but with slight occasional noodliness.
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That's pretty typical. To overcome this, focus in on those shapes for a few weeks in all positions. Just make it a technical exercise and play the shapes up, down and sideways in all keys, moving through the cycle of 4ths.
Originally Posted by jayx123
Also pretty typical. The natural laying of the fingers in different positions will favor certain phrases over others in the various positions.2. when playing a phrase on these arps I find that in each position I tend to form different kind of phrases
If that is the case, then you don't have the arpeggios internalized yet. Eventually, working on them technically as in (1) above, they will just flow out of your fingers naturally. Also focus on rhythmic interest...you can make the simplest triad from root position sound good if you phrase it right rhythmically.3. There is so much thinking (visualizing) going on that I find it very hard to really play melodically (play what I hear) as I'm on a path to certain notes so I find myself playing very technical.
Sounds OK to me - you don't have to nail every change.4. on the chromatic descending chords at the end of the tune I have a hard time constructing any lines as the chords change so fast so I tend to switch to the key center approach there
Again, focus technically on beginning arps/triads from notes other than the root. This is more difficult simply because you tend to think "Oh, this part is in A minor, and here's an A...I'll play from that." Instead you have to think "This part is in A minor, so I'll play from the 7th, which is a G." It just takes practice.5. I feel my self fighting the auto pilot urge to play the full triads or the full 4 notes of the arps
I thought your playing sounded pretty fluid. :-)6. I find it very difficult to play fluidly.
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Jeff thanks so much for these pointers.
I guess that first priority is internalizing the arps shapes in all positions, this is my main focus now. I was also glad to see that the difficulties I'm having are typical which probably means that I'm not doing stuff wrong
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Hey Jayx123... great playing... and even better that your letting us all in on your process... I'm sure it is extremely useful to many... How would you like me to help... verbally explain, with examples. I'm not what I would call an arpeggio guide tone player, but can cover.
I like changing positions, to me it's like playing different notes or as you pointed out different phrasing.( don't like playing in one position)
Why not mix, as your referring to, the two styles of soloing, might help on your quest to be melodic. On chromatic passages there are usually pedal like techniques that sound much more melodic than spelling out changes, especially when your going through them a few times. Your playing the tune in E-, why not let us know... Let me know, I really understand jazz harmony... it's where I come from... Best Reg
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Reg, thanks a lot for offering to help! I find this forum extremely helpful and that people hear are so willing to share their knowledge.
As I'm going through this process with out the guidance of a music teacher I would appreciate any help with this process as this way of thinking is so different then the way I use to play.
Currently I still don't have my arpeggios down so what I'm focusing now is to internalize the arpeggios by taking a note from each of the top strings and playing 2 octive arpeggios for Xmaj7, X7, X-7, X-7b5 I'm focusing only on the 1-3-5-7 (no tensions). In addition I already took FatJeff advise and started working each chord type moving it in the cycle of 4ths, which is a great exercise and also sounds very nice especially on the Maj7.
I'm also thinking in playing autumn leaves each time in a single position (of the major scale and playing a single octive arpeggio on each chord.
If you think other exercises are more efficient or that this approach to learning the arps is wrong or should be postponed to a later phase then I will be glad to hear or any advise on the best way to internalize the arps.
I have tried to mix these two approaches together and founf the at this stage I'm finding it very difficult to fuse them together and kind of switch from one to the other on each phrase. I hope I will be able to fuse these together, as this is my ultimate goal.
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Food for thought/exercises regarding chord tone approach:
(check out all the seven steps: YouTube - Kanaal van bjensenjazz)
And Jake Hanlon's Autumn Leaves study which can be found here: http://www.jakehanlon.com/live/ under "downloads.
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Hey Jayx123...
Sound very cool... I'm a fan of being aware of basic chord tone arpeggios, 1,3,5,7 and versions of, but there so incomplete... what's the difference between II-, III- and VI-, you're not going to hear it playing basic arpeggios yet each chord implies very different harmonic areas. For now.. I'll explaining in reference to practice. I would add practice of complete arpeggios of each chord form, for example... Key of Gmaj. start at 3rd fret, 2nd position, 6th string... G,B,D,F#,A,C,E,G and back down. Then A- starting on 5th fret, 4th position, 6th string...A,C,E,G,B,D,F#,A and back down. Continue up through all 7 modes and positions, each starting with 2nd finger. After you have the 1st set down... then move on to all the different keys. Once you have one key down, you'll hear the connections and moving on to rest of keys is pretty simple, very mechanical. While your getting fingerings down for rest of the keys Start Melodic Min.
I start by playing for example G-, aeol., Nat.min. or VI- and all it's modes in same manor up the neck. Then I would begin my arpeggio study of Melodic Min. Helps give perspective to MM as compared to NM.
Many use Dorian for comparison but that's not source of MM, and not good reference etc. Some also move to Harmonic Min. after Nat. Min. because is simpler to visualize.
Historically there was Nat. Min. , then HM to get leading tone on V chord , and then MM to get rid of the aug. 2nd interval, or if you prefer... to imply minor melodically when using descending melodic line before reaching the b3rd. I like to get to MM as quick as possible because of Jazz connections... But the order doesn't matter... just get through each one playing arpeggio studies as you started with G Maj.
I'll listen again to your playing and try and come up with more useful material...
Best Reg
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Sredna - that first video was really inspiring - 10x, That a great exercise to play whole and half tones of only the chord tones on a tune, I like this idea, I will add this to my practice routine.
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Reg 10x again, Originally Posted by Reg
1. are you suggesting learning the modes (CST)?
2. Well, I'm kind of limited learner, and like to focus each time on a single issue so currently I'm only learning the arpeggio/guide tone.
3. Regarding the MM I do use it quite a bit when improvising by the key center approach, I use it mainly on dominants (alter scale - when resolves to the I and 5 steps up when not resolving).
4. mastering and interializing the arpeggios requires lots of practice time there are so many positions I think this will take quite a while
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randalljazz thanks I'll look it up on the net
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The way I learned the chord tone approach was as follows: take the chords in Autumn Leaves and learn the arpeggios in one position for every chord, and play them from the bottom string to the top string and back down. Let's say you decide to start in 3rd position (it doesn't matter where you start since you'll be learning all positions eventually anyways). Don't try to play over the song yet, just arpeggiate ever chord from bottom to top string and back down.
Once you can do this, set your metronome to a slow but reasonable speed and try to play over the song using ONLY chord tones. The purposed of this exercise is to train your ear to be able to hear the chord tones specifically, because being able to hear the chord tones will make it easier to target them and it will also help you use non-chord tones more tastefully. For this exercise you should NOT be using non-chord tones. Don't worry, this is just an exercise to help you learn the arps/chord tones. When you play for real you would obviously use non-chord tones in your solos.
Once you've got it down in one position, do the same thing in another position. You'll want to start off doing this in all 12 positions, although eventually you'll probably drop a few of these positions because they're inconvenient. The reason I recommend starting practicing in all 12 positions is because your concept of what positions are "inconvenient" can drastically change as your knowledge of the fretboard improves. And learning the arps in all 12 positions WILL drastically improve your knowledge of the fretboard. So be vigilant, for now.
There's more to the method after this, but this should be a good starting point.
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Hey Jayx,
This morning I was playing some Real Book 1 (6th edition) tunes and came across 'Dream A little Dream of Me'... It made me think of this thread.
It's a great tune for a mostly arpeggio approach to soloing.
Give it a try.
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Thanks, this is exactly how I'm doing it but I will minimize this to the 5 positions of the major scale (at least at first) as I improvise by key center using only the 5 shapes I want to learn the arpeggios in context of each of the 5 positions. Originally Posted by max_power
In addition I have also adopted FatJeffs idea to play the arpeggios in the cycle of 4th.
so to summarize what I'm working on now:
1. Autumn Leaves - play each arpeggio up and down then move to the next (doing this in each position) X 5 positions
2. playing each chord type running in the cycle of 4th using all 3 base strings
3. improvise autumn leaves only with chord tones 1 chorus in each position and then mixing positions.
4. improvise on autumn leaves whole notes only, half notes only and qurter notes only.
I will give this about 2 weeks of work
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Thanks fep, I'll check it as I will move from autumn leaves to a new tune when I have its arps nailed, although I kind of thought of "how high the moon" to be the next tune I work on because it has lots of 2-5/2-5-1 in different keys Originally Posted by fep
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What I would suggest considering is in second week (or later) use full arpeggios 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 connecting to closest chord-tone on the changes. It's a major leap in difficulty now having to "see" all the color tones too. Originally Posted by jayx123
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Progress report (hope this is not too boring)
I have been going at the arpeggios each day for about an hour and this is all I practice now.
but when rehearsing with my band and when gigging I play by the old key center approach. Now these arpeggios are starting to pop pup and currently this is interfering with my usual key center melodic thinking I find these arpeggios are having a "magnetic affect" and are pulling me toward them like a magnet the strange thing is that some arpeggios/chords have much more "magnetic power" then other - these are the dom7 and the half dim It very hard to resist these.
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Cool stuff... dom resolutions or just chord tones... Reg
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Ah, but the "key center approach" and the "chord tone approach" are concepts for noobs to help figure out how to navigate chord progressions. At some point you'll just "play". That's the eventual goal. Originally Posted by jayx123
Also, if you feel you're up to it, the next step in the chord tone approach is to learn the chord extensions, which will let you add some color to your playing (an explanation of why this is useful is at the bottom of this post). Here we go:
For a Maj7 chord, the extensions that will sound good are:
9
13
(#11)
For a Cmaj7 chord, these extensions would be D, A, and F#. The #11 is in brackets because it is a little bit more advanced, and you might want to avoid it for now.
For a dom7 chord, the extensions that will sound good are:
9 or b9
13 or b13
For a G7 chord, these extensions would be A or Ab, and E or Eb. You could use either the 11 or #11 (C and C# respectively), but for now focus on the 9s and 13s.
For a min7 chord, the extensions that will sound good are:
9
11
13 or b13
For a Dmin7 chord, these extensions would be an E, G, B or Bb.
***WHY THIS IS USEFUL***
You may ask, how is this any more useful than just using scales? Well, there are a number of reasons.
First of all, this approach allows you to understand the non-chord tones you can play IN RELATION TO the notes of each chord. Having this understanding prevents you from simply noodling around with your playing because it allows you to know EXACTLY what you're doing at any given time.
Second, this approach is useful for chording. The way I've laid this out here for soloing is pretty much the same way you would figure out adding extensions to your chords. Kills two birds with one stone. Plus, knowing that the person comping to your solo will be using these extensions means that it will be easier for you to listen to their comping and specifically target the notes that they are playing as chord extensions. This interplay is key in a good jazz band.
Third, it allows you to use different extensions without having to learn new scales. For example, look at the example I gave for a G7 chord. If you use the 9 and 13 as extensions, you are playing in G mixolydian. But what if you decide to use a 9 and b13? With the scale approach, you'd have to learn this as a new scale, whereas with the chord tone approach it requires very little thought to simply change this extension. Furthermore, the more chord extensions there are, the more possibilities there are to change what you're playing. In this same example, you could use the following combinations of extensions:
9 and 13
b9 and 13
9 and b13
b9 and b13
The scale approach would require the knowledge of 4 different scales in order to do this effectively. The chord tone approach allows you to do the same thing without requiring the knowledge and practice of the scales - you simply use a different extension.
Jesus, that was a long post. I hope I didn't ramble too much. Have fun practicing that stuff.
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hey Reg, sorry I didn't quite understand you question (if it is a question) Originally Posted by Reg
I'll try to answer if I understand it correctly on the dom I play the 1357 arp
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max_power thanks for this post and this will eventually be the next step but first I need to internalize the 1357 arps and only then I will start working on the tensions
When I play by key center it does not meed playing a scale, for me the key center is just an anchor or let me put it in to a metaphor Originally Posted by max_power
the music is a river it has stable rocks and less stable rocks i walk the river and on the stable rocks I can linger but on the non stable rocks i can't stand to long, because I will fall to the dissonance water. But I have realized that integrating chord tones (knowledgeably) is a great tool to have (10x again to the people here in the forum)
When I play I can hear and sing my playing Is this noodling? I dont think in outlining the changes, I think melody, a nice phrase which will sound logical over the progression.
is playing the changes but having no real melody or melodic phrase not noodling?
So basically my question is what do you consider noodling?
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Yeah, of course. I just didn't want you to think that you'd be stuck playing chord tones forever. Originally Posted by jayx123
Well, playing a nice sounding melody in the right key but not outlining the changes is noodling. Anyone with a half-decent ear can play around with a diatonic scale and make things sound okay. Also, in jazz the basic chords tend to have 4 notes (as opposed to, say, rock music, where most chords have only 3 notes), so when 4 out of the 7 notes in a scale are contained in a chord, it's pretty easy to hit some that will sound good. But you can hear the difference between someone who knows what they're doing and someone who's just playing around with a scale.So basically my question is what do you consider noodling?
Running through arpeggios without giving thought as to what they sound like is just as bad. When playing only chord tones EVERYTHING you play sounds "right", so the hard part is making it sound GOOD with only a limited amount of notes. This is actually pretty damn hard to do. So yeah, noodling goes both ways.
In the end you'll have to have a good understanding of both scales AND chord tones, and personally I find that the chord tone approach is the most efficient way to get there...in the long run. Short term, it takes a while to get the arpeggio shapes under your fingers and be able to use them anywhere on the neck, whereas with scales you can start to create solos much more quickly. But musicality is something that takes a long time to develop, so planning for the long term is much more useful. Most of the time. Keep in mind this is only my personal opinion, and isn't necessarily worth anything.
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This book was mentioned above and I have a little problem with it. Can anyone rip and upload the contents of the CD that comes with this book? I bought the Kindle version which doesn't come with the CD. The author didn't know about this problem but told me I certainly need to get the CD from somewhere. The publisher is unable to help.
Thanks.
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Hey Jay... you were saying you were drawn to dom. and -7b5 arpeggios/chords, was wondering if the draw was actually chord tones, interval thing or how because of the strong resolving characteristics of Dom. structures. What we play actually has more tendencies. best Reg Originally Posted by jayx123
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As I practice these arps the sound of these arps are internalized in my hearing and when the dom or half dim chord are played my ears "want" me to outline these chords more than the other other -7 and maj7 Originally Posted by Reg
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