chord tone soloing

**gingerjazz** · 10-06-2010, 05:54 PM

Does anyone think it is possible to play good meaningfull improv lines only using arpeggios/chordtones,and has anyone got any examples of it to listen to onyou tube or whatever.Just curious thats all.

**randalljazz** · 10-06-2010, 06:08 PM

with tasteful, jazzy use of chromatic embellishments, yes.

**Sredna** · 10-06-2010, 06:37 PM

gingerjazz, search "Fred Hamilton" on Youtube and you will find a couple of instructional videos on chord tone soloing.

**gingerjazz** · 10-06-2010, 06:43 PM

THANKS SREDNA ,ill check them out

**Sredna** · 10-06-2010, 06:51 PM

Or you can check this thread out: Fred Hamilton instructional videos on youtube

**docbop** · 10-06-2010, 07:33 PM

Yes using melodic embellishments like diatonic above and/or chromatic below. Or using chord tones of chord subs against the original chord.

**jayx123** · 10-07-2010, 02:37 AM

I also think that you could, and this is the question I'm trying to find the answer to as well, But I think that you need to have a very good melodic sense to succeed because you are thinking harmonically instead of melodically.

**franco6719** · 10-07-2010, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by jayx123

I also think that you could, and this is the question I'm trying to find the answer to as well, But I think that you need to have a very good melodic sense to succeed because you are thinking harmonically instead of melodically.

I agree that you definitely not only CAN do it, but you SHOULD try to think as much in terms of chord tones/arpeggios and approach notes as possible, at least for bebop and maybe for other types of jazz. I have been going in this direction for the last couple of years, along with constant ear training, and it definitely has helped me to improve substantially from when I was a kid in college using the key-centered, modal approach. I know I can hear a huge difference anyway and that's the important thing. I think my playing at this point is some kind of mix between approaches, but if I hadn't started to think in terms of chord-tones and really focus on that, I just would have been stuck playing basically non-jazzy scalar patterns and not even following the changes usually.

In sum, I think someone can play very well using ONLY this approach, along with interesting rhythmical ideas and good phrasing. But, more importantly, thinking in these terms becomes habitual and you start to hear the changes more clearly, almost whether you want to or not, unconsciously. It's a very useful thing.

**franco6719** · 10-07-2010, 04:38 AM

When you get into the infinite substitutions then: that's where it gets tricky. I will often be afraid to try new subs that I haven't used before because it doesn't sound or feel alright to me. That has to be practiced a great deal, I think.

**jayx123** · 10-07-2010, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

but if I hadn't started to think in terms of chord-tones and really focus on that, I just would have been stuck playing basically non-jazzy scalar patterns and not even following the changes usually.

I disagree, at least for me, when implying the tonal center approach that does not mean play the major scale period. It means that the major key center scale is used as a gravitational anchor for your lines and that you try to find the connection of the different devices to the key center I think this gives you more melodic freedom then restraining you lines to arpeggiating the current chord. So for example if you have a 2-5-1 you think of this progression in a macro sense and not in each micro chord.

**franco6719** · 10-07-2010, 06:04 AM

You see I'm not really disagreeing with you at all, though. I'm just saying that that, in my particular case, I tried the key-center approach only for a while and I wasn't satisfied with the results. JUST IN MY CASE, that is. The chordal approach has helped me out to some extent. But I also agree that can't just arpeggiate the current chord and that scales/modes are useful. I'm not saying one way is better than another or even that they should be used exclusively. Lately, for example, I sometimes (rarely) think of 2-5 in terms of the 2 (ala Pat Martino), more often in terms of the 5 chord (so diminished, augmented, altered, etc..) to the I. I think this approach allows for less diatonicism. But I'm sure that you can accomplish the same thing in the way you describe.

The ultimate thing is just to develop nice lines over tunes and not have to think about how you got there.

**jayx123** · 10-07-2010, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

The ultimate thing is just to develop nice lines over tunes

Totally agree with you

, which ever way works for you...

**philipmgibson** · 10-07-2010, 08:27 AM

I find it strange how the upper & lower neighbours concept is one of the first jazz improvisastion techniques taught to horn players, yet is rarely seen in guitar texts.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-07-2010, 09:58 AM

gingerjazz--

It's important to distinguish between the "roadmap" and the actual notes being played. I often (particularly over standards, swing, and bop) view the fretboard in terms of chor tones--but that doesn't mean every not I play is a chord tone--you dig?

It's like the chord tones are a map telling me how to get from chicago to Springfield Missouri, and the world's largest rocking chair and meramec caverns are tasty chromatics that find their way into my journey.

**gingerjazz** · 10-07-2010, 01:45 PM

Mr B thank you for that incredibly insightfull analogy, you have an amazing mastery of the english language, maybe much of your ability with words carries over to your playing i dont know, but i do know that your students are lucky to have found such an articulate and inspirational teacher.Good teachers are hard to find near where i live, if only i could move to Chicago,oh well keep on dreaming Ginger.

**franco6719** · 10-07-2010, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by philipmgibson

I find it strange how the upper & lower neighbours concept is one of the first jazz improvisastion techniques taught to horn players, yet is rarely seen in guitar texts.

Scales, scales, scales, scales, scales, scales... and positional playing is all you will find in most guitar texts.

**Shadow of the Sun** · 10-07-2010, 10:18 PM

I think a cool way of getting started with chord tone soloing is actually pretty simple-

Start constructing walking basslines on the chords of a standard. Don't just do it on the bottom two strings, do it on all of them.

Then start varying the rhythms, the amount of passing tones and so on.

This is an interesting little thing to work on because the starting exercise actually sounds good, so it's pretty fun to play.

**franco6719** · 10-08-2010, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

I think a cool way of getting started with chord tone soloing is actually pretty simple-

Start constructing walking basslines on the chords of a standard. Don't just do it on the bottom two strings, do it on all of them.

Then start varying the rhythms, the amount of passing tones and so on.

This is an interesting little thing to work on because the starting exercise actually sounds good, so it's pretty fun to play.

John Abercrombie talks about soloing using just quarter-notes in different registers on one of his instructional videos. It's on Youtube somewhere.

**franco6719** · 10-08-2010, 04:31 AM

**jayx123** · 10-08-2010, 05:57 AM

I have some questions to the players who improvise by the arpeggio guide tone method:

1. do you "hit" chord tones on each chord?
2. when do you emphasize the guide tones (3,7) do you do that when first "reaching" the chord, while the chord is played or when "leaving" the chord to the next one.
3. do you find your self arpeggiating the chords to much (at least thats whats happening to me - I've only been at it for about 2 weeks)
4. are there areas which you deliberately decide not to outline the harmony for example what if you want to play a long digital pattern which spans a few chords in the progression (will you create an "arpeggio like digital pattern which will outline the harmony or move the digital pattern chromatically or scale wise).

I must say that I have already learned a lot from this forum, and I'm glad I got a push to give the arpeggio/guide tone another shot (by the recommendation of people in this forum, its seems to be easier then my previous attempt about 15 years ago, so thanks guys :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 10-08-2010, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by jayx123

1. do you "hit" chord tones on each chord?
2. when do you emphasize the guide tones (3,7) do you do that when first "reaching" the chord, while the chord is played or when "leaving" the chord to the next one.
3. do you find your self arpeggiating the chords to much (at least thats whats happening to me - I've only been at it for about 2 weeks)
4. are there areas which you deliberately decide not to outline the harmony for example what if you want to play a long digital pattern which spans a few chords in the progression :-)

1. probably. But see, I don't see chord tones as just R357 in a major seventh chord, for example--I conider the ninth a chord tone, the sixth, hell, even a #11 is it's a I chord. The roadmap is just simplified, but the other notes are fair game, meaning, there's only a few notes I'd hit that I wouldn't consider "chord tones."

2. In practice, maybe. In the heat of the moment, I'm crafting melodies--I'm not concerned if I'm playing the third or seventh (although, it often turns out those are damn good places to start and finish)

3. No. Again, a "chord tone approach" is just a roadmap. A good thing to practice is the "next door neighbors" idea of enclosing the chord tones in passing chromatics...so a generic example would be, you wanna play B--play Bb--C--B. Dig? That'll get you out of playing straight arpeggios in a hurry.

4. Absolutely. When I'm playing outside, the changes are blowing by at a mile a minute, or the tune is more modern/modal in concept, I'll absolutely eschew "hitting" every chord. Actually, when I'm playing my most melodic, I'm not adressing every chord either, at least in terms of blowing new licks for each change--the chords are simply there as a backdrop--again, like I keep saying A MAP--not a "paint by number."

Now when I wanna cut some heads over a bop tune--you better beleive I'm hitting those chords!

**jayx123** · 10-08-2010, 10:59 AM

Mr B. 10x !!

**docbop** · 10-08-2010, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by jayx123

I have some questions to the players who improvise by the arpeggio guide tone method:

1. do you "hit" chord tones on each chord?
2. when do you emphasize the guide tones (3,7) do you do that when first "reaching" the chord, while the chord is played or when "leaving" the chord to the next one.
3. do you find your self arpeggiating the chords to much (at least thats whats happening to me - I've only been at it for about 2 weeks)
4. are there areas which you deliberately decide not to outline the harmony for example what if you want to play a long digital pattern which spans a few chords in the progression (will you create an "arpeggio like digital pattern which will outline the harmony or move the digital pattern chromatically or scale wise).

I must say that I have already learned a lot from this forum, and I'm glad I got a push to give the arpeggio/guide tone another shot (by the recommendation of people in this forum, its seems to be easier then my previous attempt about 15 years ago, so thanks guys :-)

1. In general yes I trying to have something that says here's the harmony original or your changes. As you hear in great solos you will notes that you know where they are in the progression.

2. 3rds & 7th are the notes that define a chord and playing either one on a strong beat lets people know the harmony. Listen and you will hear good soloist nail one of those on a chord change especially if they can approach one chromatically. It doesn't have to be obvious can be part of a long line a strong chord tone is hit on strong beat of a chord change.

3. I will sometime just use arp, but more typical the arpeggio of a chord subsituion. Wes and Martino do that a lot. A minor chord they will play the Ma7 arp of the relative major.

4. In a sense you're always implying harmony to the listener ear. So you may not be thinking chord tones, but humans grown up on Western music subconsciously are listening to what's being played on strong beats. If they hear doesn't make sense original, sub's, or reharmonization they start thinking am I being BS'd?

I've studied both guitar and bass in school and odd as a bass player we get more into the how the ear/brain listens. Our ears/brain are lightyears ahead of what we think and can hear some really outside stuff and understand it. That is why chord clusters, symmetric harmony and similar stuff works even if the audience (and sometime the player) haven't a clue what's being played. That is why you see me say strong beats so much that is key to how people perceive what we are playing. That is why there are things like Bebop scale that line chord tones up on strong beats. You can play just about any note you want as long as you nail a chord tone on a strong beat.

**jayx123** · 10-08-2010, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

1. In general yes I trying to have something that says here's the harmony original or your changes. As you hear in great solos you will notes that you know where they are in the progression.

2. 3rds & 7th are the notes that define a chord and playing either one on a strong beat lets people know the harmony. Listen and you will hear good soloist nail one of those on a chord change especially if they can approach one chromatically. It doesn't have to be obvious can be part of a long line a strong chord tone is hit on strong beat of a chord change.

3. I will sometime just use arp, but more typical the arpeggio of a chord subsituion. Wes and Martino do that a lot. A minor chord they will play the Ma7 arp of the relative major.

4. In a sense you're always implying harmony to the listener ear. So you may not be thinking chord tones, but humans grown up on Western music subconsciously are listening to what's being played on strong beats. If they hear doesn't make sense original, sub's, or reharmonization they start thinking am I being BS'd?

I've studied both guitar and bass in school and odd as a bass player we get more into the how the ear/brain listens. Our ears/brain are lightyears ahead of what we think and can hear some really outside stuff and understand it. That is why chord clusters, symmetric harmony and similar stuff works even if the audience (and sometime the player) haven't a clue what's being played. That is why you see me say strong beats so much that is key to how people perceive what we are playing. That is why there are things like Bebop scale that line chord tones up on strong beats. You can play just about any note you want as long as you nail a chord tone on a strong beat.

10x docbop, If I wanna play a long line which spans a few chords I will only need to nail the chord tones on the last chord of the line?