Byrne's polytonal improvisation book

**mike walker** · 09-12-2010, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

I know good and well John knows his scales, as every Berklee alum HAS TO! (lol) I never said scales and modes are useless. The problem with them, is that unless internalized fully, scales could be a dangerous regurgitating process. I remember my teacher at UNT Fred Hamilton once tell us that when he learned his scales, he sounded too academic. When he started applying chromatics, enclosures, arps and other devices, boom!
Essential what he taught us was to learn then, then get them into your head as "sounds" which arps and chromatics come from. In fact, I was struggling with thinking too much in terms of "what scale fits over what chord" and it started hindering my playing. I asked Jake Hanlon via email what he would advise. He too studied under Fred. He told me to realize that melodies, intervals and arps ect come out of scales, and to think in terms of melodies, not scales. (Thanks Jake, still WAY HELPFUL to this day!) So in essence, I don't say scales are bad at all, it's just they can get players stuck on over-thinking. Let me ask you this, when you play a ii-V-I, do you think "dorian, altered/mixo whatever, Ionian/lydian?

Yes i agree with this. But what seems to have happened is that new students seem to be thinking they can by-pass scales and go straight to pitch collections etc.
I mean, i did read, not too long ago, a thread entitled 'Modes are Useless'!!!!!!! And i feel this is what is being gleaned.

I don't think scales when i'm improvising. I think melody, rhythm etc.
But the scales are so internalized. And if i come across a new Scale/mode/sound call it what you will, i internalize that, all over the neck, no stone unturned (until i find a stone i should have turned

).

Let me ask you this..... do you think 'pitch collection' when you're improvising?

**larry graves** · 09-12-2010, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

Well ya can improvise over a single bass note, or a just a drum pattern or a fish or a boiled wig or a....

So yeah, you can totally improvise over, through, etc a scale.

But where in that post, do i say 'improvise over scales'..??.

I don't doubt you in the least, i'm just confused.

I'll just try the fish, it has plenty of scales to choose from.LG..

**mike walker** · 09-12-2010, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by larry graves

I'll just try the fish, it has plenty of scales to choose from.LG..

Fish is served, as is justice.

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-12-2010, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by mike walker

Let me ask you this..... do you think 'pitch collection' when you're improvising?

Yes, I do. I think tonal centers, unless if I come across a non-functional altered chords (major, minor or dom) like in a lot of Shorter tunes, Miles tunes ect. Then I think stricly chord tones and not scales. See, this was my BIGGEST problem with scales:

"What happens when I come across that Gb7#11b9 that has nothing to do with the key I'm in, Bb ect?" I tried the whole scale method and realized I was getting stuck in the mud. THAT is where the Abercrombie approach to sticking to chord tones and the upper triads helped A LOT!

**mike walker** · 09-12-2010, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

Yes, I do. I think tonal centers, unless if I come across a non-functional altered chords (major, minor or dom) like in a lot of Shorter tunes, Miles tunes ect. Then I think stricly chord tones and not scales. See, this was my BIGGEST problem with scales:

"What happens when I come across that Gb7#11b9 that has nothing to do with the key I'm in, Bb ect?" I tried the whole scale method and realized I was getting stuck in the mud. THAT is where the Abercrombie approach to sticking to chord tones and the upper triads helped A LOT!

Ya see, i don't. I don't think scales, or tonal centres. I don't want to think when i play. Just hear and feel. I just hear melody. Or feel energy, or groove etc.

I have internalized those sounds very deeply.

I don't only see and hear what changes, i see what stays the same.

And i can delineate a chord sequence without any backing chords or bass notes.

We differ in that, and that's cool, it's great that you found a way that works for you.

John did the Kenny Wheeler band for a while and i know for a fact, having read the same charts over many years with Kenny, that a tonal centre approach is not gonna cut it on those tunes. Some tunes just won't take it.

Some will, but even then, i find there's a tendency to be repetitive because the sounds used blur the arc of the harmony.

Standards are crammed with ii v Is all over the place. If you "tonal centre' them all then a certain finesse is lost, and the individual sound of a tune is compromised IMHO. Everything starts to sound the same. The same arc. The same movements.

This is a slightly different debate tho. It's more about your own aesthetic, and i would always encourage that if it makes you happy.

My main point is the advocating that scales and modes are useless topic, which i know you're not saying, but some do, and there are many casualties because of it.

**reventlov** · 09-12-2010, 03:58 PM

An important point about scales is that you have to know them very well indeed in order to forget them when you're actually playing; it's only when you get your scalic knowledge to that point that they really start to work for you - in other words...you have to work on them - what a surprise huh? Any time I come across the 'scales aren't necessary, modes aren't necessary' kind of comments, I tend to think that whoever is saying that just hasn't learned them well enough to use them, and doesn't realise that the fault is his own, not the scale.

It puts me in mind of a quote from, of all people, Bruce Lee - "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick...when I learned the art, a punch was a process of enormous coordination, a kick was a complex thing of torque and force and angles.....now that I understand the art, a punch is once again just a punch, and a kick is just a kick...." - in other words you have to pass through the stage where you are thinking all the time of what you are doing, in order to reach the stage where you just do it without conscious thought.

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by reventlov

An important point about scales is that you have to know them very well indeed in order to forget them when you're actually playing; it's only when you get your scalic knowledge to that point that they really start to work for you - in other words...you have to work on them - what a surprise huh? Any time I come across the 'scales aren't necessary, modes aren't necessary' kind of comments, I tend to think that whoever is saying that just hasn't learned them well enough to use them, and doesn't realise that the fault is his own, not the scale.

It puts me in mind of a quote from, of all people, Bruce Lee - "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick...when I learned the art, a punch was a process of enormous coordination, a kick was a complex thing of torque and force and angles.....now that I understand the art, a punch is once again just a punch, and a kick is just a kick...." - in other words you have to pass through the stage where you are thinking all the time of what you are doing, in order to reach the stage where you just do it without conscious thought.

Indeed.

One thing i come across as a teacher, is someone who has practiced scales like mad, but hasn't internalized them.
They can't see the individual components within them.
They can't connect them from any point of one scale to any point of another scale.
They often don't play melodies. They play scales.

That's totally missing the point.

Your melody cannot be interfered with just because a change comes.

Your melody has to move along the same arc, with the same intent.

**Shadow of the Sun** · 09-13-2010, 03:20 AM

Mike, would you say, then, that one of the best ways to internalize scales is by playing them in intervals?

By which I mean: if I was playing in thirds, I'd play root-third-second-fourth-third-fifth...and so on and so on.

Doing that for every interval should really give you the ability to move with your ears really well.

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

Mike, would you say, then, that one of the best ways to internalize scales is by playing them in intervals?

By which I mean: if I was playing in thirds, I'd play root-third-second-fourth-third-fifth...and so on and so on.

Doing that for every interval should really give you the ability to move with your ears really well.

Yes, absolutely. But be careful not to get locked into an ear pattern, where your ear leads, and your knowledge gets lost in the mist.

Test yourself. Interrupt the ear flow. Play a third followed by a 4th followed by a 5th then back to a 3rd then 4th then 5th etc.

That keeps the brain engaged.

So my point being, when doing just 3rds....or just 4ths or whatever, keep the brain engaged. Why? Well, because you're going to throw all sorts at this simple exercise and it better be ingrained like your best buddy's name.

Also try to play scales through a sequence/standard (like Miss Jones -with key changes) without breaking the flow of notes. IOW, continuity scales. No going back down to the root unless the root happens to be the next note in the chain.

This is tougher than finding pools of notes that work 'over' lots of chords.
But it is so valuable.

**Shadow of the Sun** · 09-13-2010, 03:41 AM

There's a lovely series of vids on YouTube where Sco is teaching a class about scales and how they fit over chords- he manages to make some brilliant lines using nothing but scale tones. It's beautiful the way he manages it- he mentions using the exercise I suggested, and using the scale to make arpeggios while keeping the scale in mind.

Very much worth watching.

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

There's a lovely series of vids on YouTube where Sco is teaching a class about scales and how they fit over chords- he manages to make some brilliant lines using nothing but scale tones. It's beautiful the way he manages it- he mentions using the exercise I suggested, and using the scale to make arpeggios while keeping the scale in mind.

Very much worth watching.

Yes yes i remember seeing this in another life. It's old right?

Yes it's a great example of what i've been banging on about for a while now.

On the internet, so many perceptions are gleaned that would not be over a pint in the pub, or a glass of wine by the fire.

I hope i'm making sense in a way that isn't too dictatorial.

I Just see scales modes and theory get such a raw deal.

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-13-2010, 10:15 AM

are you talking about this?

or this:

Sorry, I can't tell you which is which, I haven't seen them in a while, and I'm having a problem with the sound on my pc, so I can't listenb to them now

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

are you talking about this?

or this:

Sorry, I can't tell you which is which, I haven't seen them in a while, and I'm having a problem with the sound on my pc, so I can't listenb to them now

I think it's the first one Jazza. But the second one is the same deal i think. Internalizing these sounds so they are music not just scale running.

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-13-2010, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

Yes yes i remember seeing this in another life. It's old right?

Yes it's a great example of what i've been banging on about for a while now.

On the internet, so many perceptions are gleaned that would not be over a pint in the pub, or a glass of wine by the fire.

I hope i'm making sense in a way that isn't too dictatorial.

I Just see scales modes and theory get such a raw deal.

This might be a VERY dangerous question, but it's one I often hotly debate here, what is your view on licks? Are you for or against the memorization of licks?

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

This might be a VERY dangerous question, but it's one I often hotly debate here, what is your view on licks? Are you for or against the memorization of licks?

I love to improvise. Love to take a line where the music wants it to go.
This means interaction. Licks often involve a cut and paste feel.
They sometimes go against the organic growth of the music.
They just get slapped in when they arn't required or called for and the music suffers.

That said, as a learning tool... they are great. Transcribing is great.

And i have to say sometimes my own pet phrases come out.....but only when the music asks for them.

I see some students take a run and jump to a lick and it kind of jerks the music into asking 'whoa!!! WTF was that???!!!'.....

What are your thoughts on the matter?

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-13-2010, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I wholeheartedly concur with your position. Licks can be a great learning tool. Heck, I think that's where a lot of us strated. Before I had the tools and technique/knowledge (before I went to school to study jazz) I knew Charlie Christian, Joe Pass and Django licks. However, when I got to school and was given the tools, it was "where do I take it from here?" I was told by several teachers that if I was going to transcribe, do so for the sake of bettering my ear and seeing what the player was doing after the fact, and only take maybe one lick, or so. There was a time where I was stuck playing licks, and after a while I HATED IT! I came to a realization that all licks really are are ideas melded together (cells+arps+ect) to create one idea. It made me realize that all I needed to get the sound that certain players had that I dug, was to figure out what they were doing, and apply those concepts myself. (ex: if I liked Sco's diminished bluesy or fourths stuff, I wouldn't copy him verbatim, but work out the concepts on my own to integrate them into my arsenal)

I also realized that there is IMHO a HUGE difference between ideas and licks. Ideas are cells, patterns, scale passages, vocabulary, devices ect that are to be practiced until internalized, meanwhile licks can be all or some of the ideas combined to form one idea in a short moment. I often ask myself when I see a lick, "what's happening here that sounds so cool?" not "let me copy it mindlessly"

There are a lot of what I call "lick players" that come out of schools each year, or sit up in your local music store reeling off licks at 250 bpm. They don't impress me. What bothers me is that there are some players that are lick players and that are taken seriously. I won't mention names. I know that when guys like Wes, Grant Green or Jim Hall played a lick or a cell, it was either as a quote, to pass through a change or they stuck with it and morphed it lyrically.

**Shadow of the Sun** · 09-13-2010, 10:59 AM

I did mean the first one, Jazzyteach.

About the licks issue, I think that licks are useful- IF and ONLY IF they are used as motifs that you can ornament and bring into a whole new world.

Which is, I suppose, one advantage of the scalar approach- you can see the relations of the notes in a lick/motif in one scale and apply it to the next, and the next, and so on. Motif development is really fun to approach.

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-16-2010, 02:41 PM

BTW Mike, do you get any of your students to connect scales over all kinds of improvisational situations without stopping? ie one bar, ii-V, two bars ii-v-I-Vi, all kinds of turnarounds, tunes ect, using all kinds of scales and alterations over dominant, starting lines from every degree? I know Remler had her students do this. I just think it forces one to change-chase and rely on scaler licks. I'm just wondering if it's a good etude/exercise. A teacher of mine had me do it a while back.

**mike walker** · 09-16-2010, 02:51 PM

I would highly recommend it Jazzy.

It has everything to do with foundation but is not the end result.

It supports the end result (melody.... feel... groove etc).

**merseybeat** · 09-16-2010, 07:18 PM

And thereth lyeth the lesson! Hopefully see you in Spain next year Mike! I have just started digging my tunnel!

Eddie (Liverpool/Saudi)

**mike walker** · 09-17-2010, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

And thereth lyeth the lesson! Hopefully see you in Spain next year Mike! I have just started digging my tunnel!

Eddie (Liverpool/Saudi)

Look forward to it, Fella.

**ljistudent** · 09-23-2010, 10:17 AM

Just remembering that if you have a scale taken one of its pitch, it is no longer that same scale anymore, pretty much what happens between the major scale and the heminitonic pentatonic scale.

**ljistudent** · 09-23-2010, 10:18 AM

wait, what just happened? Am I in the wrong thread? sorry...

**Rickh** · 09-28-2010, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by ljistudent

wait, what just happened? Am I in the wrong thread? sorry...

"Oops!" You bumped your books again.

**Silence** · 12-29-2010, 12:55 AM

I have to agree in that I think transcribing is great for improving your ear, but I have had a hell of a time trying to extract the ideas from said tunes and making them my own. Mainly because it feels like I am wearing a size 10 shoe when I should be wearing a 12.

It has helped tremendously in being able to play back others ideas while jamming to acknowledge that I caught what they were playing and enjoyed it.

In terms of scales and modes though, I have recently started applying Mick Goodrick's unitar approach. I am trying to figure out the best course of action for learning each string in all twelve keys, with each mode.

Anyways, using that approach has really enabled me to think in terms of melody even though I am using scales. It's also a lot easier for me to think about theory, chord tones, scale degrees, etc . .