Rhythm changes licks

[Ivan2794]

Hi !
I'm working on rhrythm changes and I need some help. I work licks from the Herb Ellis method. I learned some and then tried to analyze them and see what material is used. I have trouble with the first A bars.

He often outline the changes with just a chromatic note outside of the major scale, most often the tonic of the dim chord (Bbmaj/Bdim/Cmin/C#dim/Dm/G7/Cm/F7).
I undertand the theory and I can play some of his licks, but if I try to improvise, and don't have enough time to think about those quick changes.

Is there something I'm missing, or is it just the kind of tune where we need to have stock phrases that outline changes ?

Thanks a lot
Ivan

[Christian Miller]

Hi !
I'm working on rhrythm changes and I need some help. I work licks from the Herb Ellis method. I learned some and then tried to analyze them and see what material is used. I have trouble with the first A bars.

He often outline the changes with just a chromatic note outside of the major scale, most often the tonic of the dim chord (Bbmaj/Bdim/Cmin/C#dim/Dm/G7/Cm/F7).
I undertand the theory and I can play some of his licks, but if I try to improvise, and don't have enough time to think about those quick changes.

Is there something I'm missing, or is it just the kind of tune where we need to have stock phrases that outline changes ?

Thanks a lot
Ivan

I think you have chunk things down a bit. Rather than thinking about individual chords think about modules of four or five chords and practice lines through those.

So a good example would be a line that outlines

Bb Bo7 C-7 C#o7
Or a line that outlines
D-7 F7 C-7 F7
Or
Bb Bb7 Eb Eo7
Etc

And then join them together.


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[Ivan2794]

Thanks a lot

Is it normal to think about lines I worked before ?
If I try to really improvise in these kind of progressions, I feel lost or I just play the Bb scale and don't outline the chords.

It's "frustrating" because I can play lines I worked but I don't feel really free to improvise when doing this..

[Christian Miller]

Thanks a lot

Is it normal to think about lines I worked before ?
If I try to really improvise in these kind of progressions, I feel lost or I just play the Bb scale and don't outline the chords.

It's "frustrating" because I can play lines I worked but I don't feel really free to improvise when doing this..

If you want to sound like a fluent bopper on RC, I wouldn’t worry too much about improvisation. Work on repertoire of things to play.

Short modules are the most flexible, that said. Many students use licks that are too long.

Expecting yourself to be able improvise freely and idiomatically on rhythm changes right away is expecting too much because that’s two things at once. You can only practice one thing at a time.

Choose one - idiom OR improvisation - and work on that. Eventually the two things will come together but it does take work.


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[Ivan2794]

Thanks a lot
If I want to improvise, do I need to think about the scales/arpeggios while playing, or do I need to locate the sound on my fingerboard and just "sing in my head" and play the sound ?

It's hard for me to go out of the boxes of scales/arpeggios... and I tend to play this without much punctuation

I think I will keep working on vocabulary and learning then analysing licks, it seems to be the way to go
Thanks

[djg]

Thanks a lot
If I want to improvise, do I need to think about the scales/arpeggios while playing, or do I need to locate the sound on my fingerboard and just "sing in my head" and play the sound ?

how do you know what to sing?

[MarkRhodes]

Christian is right: you can't practice two things at once.

It's more important to play than to think about playing. As Herb says, "You may play your way into a new way of thinking, but you cannot think your way into a new way of playing."

Make the lines sound good. Then make them sound better. Nuances reveal themselves.

[James W]

If you want to sound like a fluent bopper on RC, I wouldn’t worry too much about improvisation. Work on repertoire of things to play.

Short modules are the most flexible, that said. Many students use licks that are too long.

Expecting yourself to be able improvise freely and idiomatically on rhythm changes right away is expecting too much because that’s two things at once. You can only practice one thing at a time.

Choose one - idiom OR improvisation - and work on that. Eventually the two things will come together but it does take work.


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A better way to phrase this would be to say - work on both idiom and improv, but initially separately, with emphasis more on the idiom at the initial beginner to intermediate level.

Because telling someone to work on idiom then giving them an either/or about idiom or improv is a bit contradictory or potentially confusing.

I would add to the OP to check out transcriptions of playing on RC and obviously start transcribing your favourite RC tunes and solos ASAP. And also start composing lines based on the techniques you hear from the playing you listen to and admire.

[Christian Miller]

A better way to phrase this would be to say - work on both idiom and improv, but initially separately, with emphasis more on the idiom at the initial beginner to intermediate level.

Because telling someone to work on idiom then giving them an either/or about idiom or improv is a bit contradictory or potentially confusing.

Yeah I basically agree with that rephrasing.

[rpjazzguitar]

Bbmaj7 is Bb D F A
Bdim7 is B D F Ab

There's a tonal center which is Bb. So, if you just use the notes of a Bbmajor scale it will work, as you know, but it won't outline the individual changes.

The easiest way IMO to outline the individual changes is to start with Bbmaj7 and then, when the chord changes to Bdim7, you make two adjustments The Bb goes to B and the A goes to Ab. So, if you played an idea over Bbmaj7 that had an A in it, you could play the same line, but lower the A to an Ab (and adjust a Bb to B if you had one in the line.

I think you'll find that just moving the Bb to B is enough to hear the chord change.

Cm7 is C Eb G Bb
F7 is F A C Eb

The key note change hear, to my ear, is Bb to A. The bass will do the C to F. The Eb stays the same. The G to C is left, and those are fifths which you can omit, or not.

So, to practice it, you might take a simple line composed of the chord tones of Bbmaj7 and just adjust the notes that require adjustment.

[Ivan2794]

I finally registered little chunks of 2 to 4 mesures (first 4 mesures, then 2 measures with the ii V I in Eb and then 2 measures of turnaround).
I can combine them and it gives me a lot of options.
I started analysing them to be able to really improvise. For some licks it works, for other it goes to fast outlining all the chords and I think it's better to have stock phrases in this case.

Thanks for all the replies, I think i'm on the (a) good path

[Ivan2794]

Hello everone
I keep working with the Herb Ellis books. I consolidate my RC licks, and started to work on the ATTYA book.

A friend mine showed me another book, the Van Hemert "fundamental shapes".
It consists basically of 5 fundamental shapes (major7 arpeggio, min6 arpeggio, dim arpeggio, minor harmonic and altered sound). Then, he advice to pratice it on loops in different harmonic contexts.
When mastered, apply this shapes in tunes.

I think it's basically the same as making my bank of licks and concepts from Herb Ellis books. But maybe it will allow more freedom afterthat, since the concepts behind the fundamental shapes are clearly explained and that the shapes are easier to play than the Herb Ellis licks.

Any advice on keeping working the Herb material or starting with Van Hemert system ?

Thanks a lot, and sorry for all the questionning.

[charlieparker]

Hello everone
I keep working with the Herb Ellis books. I consolidate my RC licks, and started to work on the ATTYA book.

A friend mine showed me another book, the Van Hemert "fundamental shapes".
It consists basically of 5 fundamental shapes (major7 arpeggio, min6 arpeggio, dim arpeggio, minor harmonic and altered sound). Then, he advice to pratice it on loops in different harmonic contexts.
When mastered, apply this shapes in tunes.

I think it's basically the same as making my bank of licks and concepts from Herb Ellis books. But maybe it will allow more freedom afterthat, since the concepts behind the fundamental shapes are clearly explained and that the shapes are easier to play than the Herb Ellis licks.

Any advice on keeping working the Herb material or starting with Van Hemert system ?

Thanks a lot, and sorry for all the questionning.

No concrete advice. I am interested in hearing a recording of the Ellis licks over a rhythm changes song. My give others, also, more context to advise. I was thinking of working through the Ellis book, too. Don't know much about Van Hemert's system.

[Ivan2794]

PTT-20260201-WA0014.mp3

If someone have opinion about Van Hemert system vs my own licks and concepts library from Herb Ellis method...

Maybe the Van Hemert system could help me with sound and fretboard knowledge, and from this I can add some licks from Ellis ?

Thanksss

[Ivan2794]

No feedback about the Van Hemert book ?
I would appreciate some criticism about the little RC solo also ?

Thankss

[djg]

No feedback about the Van Hemert book ?
I would appreciate some criticism about the little RC solo also ?

Thankss

solo is good. do this x100 and you are set up for sucess.

the more chords and heads you know the better your fretboard knowledge. there's your method

[charlieparker]

No feedback about the Van Hemert book ?
I would appreciate some criticism about the little RC solo also ?

Thankss

Solo sounded excellent to me. Great technique, timing was really solid all the licks worked on the changes. Was that your own stuff or the Ellis licks?

I can't give any advice since you are already beyond my level. That said if you like Van Hemert's playing, I don't see what it could hurt to check out his stuff.

[Ivan2794]

it's Herb Ellis licks for the A part, a mix of improvisation and licks in the B part.

I prefer Herb Ellis style than CVH but the concept of CVH seems to be easier to use and to give more freedom with very few "blocks" that can be combined and modified...

In the last page of the Herb Ellis method it's written "don't try to make you own improvisation before learning all the solo and vamps without being sidetracked..."

[charlieparker]

it's Herb Ellis licks for the A part, a mix of improvisation and licks in the B part.

I prefer Herb Ellis style than CVH but the concept of CVH seems to be easier to use and to give more freedom with very few "blocks" that can be combined and modified...

In the last page of the Herb Ellis method it's written "don't try to make you own improvisation before learning all the solo and vamps without being sidetracked..."

Thanks for the update. I have been planning to work with the Ellis book, too. Your examples are inspiring.

[sully75]

No feedback about the Van Hemert book ?
I would appreciate some criticism about the little RC solo also ?

Thankss

Hey man

I have worked with Christiaan on his discord server for a couple of years and I can very highly recommend getting on there and seeing if it's for you.

Van Hemert's "Books" aren't really books. It's sort of a program. You pay for the book which contains a lot of licks but you're paying to submit exercises to CVH (Christiaan Van Hemert) and have him review your work. I can say his comments and criticisms are beyond helpful...something of a surgeon of music in that he will cut up your playing with a scalpel and tell you what you are doing wrong. It's never mean, just precise.

He really was on me (and continues to be on me) about my rhythm, which, in all fairness, is atrocious. But after playing guitar seriously for like 10 years, no one really had told me that. And his advice has been super helpful. He's without a doubt the best music teacher I've ever had, despite never having met him.

The books are sort of expensive as "books" but it's like 1/3 the cost of a NY hotshot lesson. I did book II and it took me like 18 months or more to finish it. And I'm still working off that stuff daily.

The Discord is a nice community too. No dicks.

Important note: Book I was written before the Discord server and doesn't have the exercise review thing. My advice is to pick whichever book appeals to you (Book II is general Jazz and Django Jazz mixed up, there's an old Django book, New Django book, Bebop book and post bop I think) and work through it.

Let me know if you have other questions....

[Ivan2794]

I started working on the book I. It gives me some focus on sound, rhythm and fretboard knowledge. It also give me tools more usefull than the Herb Ellis licks for some tunes we play in jam (minor swing, Blues en mineur, Dark eyes...).

But I also made a compilation of the Herb Ellis licks I worked on (10 on rhythm changes A part, 10 ii V I and and 10 turnarounds).
It allows me to give more "soul" to the Van Hemert stuff that sounds a bit "cold" to me.

So, the program will be working on fundamentals shapes, reviewing the Herb Ellis licks again and again and learning more tunes. I also would like to learn some Herb's licks for the B part of RC.

Know, I have to keep playing and stop thinking

[sully75]

I started working on the book I. It gives me some focus on sound, rhythm and fretboard knowledge. It also give me tools more usefull than the Herb Ellis licks for some tunes we play in jam (minor swing, Blues en mineur, Dark eyes...).

But I also made a compilation of the Herb Ellis licks I worked on (10 on rhythm changes A part, 10 ii V I and and 10 turnarounds).
It allows me to give more "soul" to the Van Hemert stuff that sounds a bit "cold" to me.

So, the program will be working on fundamentals shapes, reviewing the Herb Ellis licks again and again and learning more tunes. I also would like to learn some Herb's licks for the B part of RC.

Know, I have to keep playing and stop thinking

Just for the record, Book I doesn't include CVH's teaching, which is invaluable. The discord has a big crowd of people on it and you can see people getting better. It's not just about the licks but applying one lick in a bunch of ways and he is amazing at that.

[Ivan2794]

You're right there is no teaching with the first book.
But its a lot of money, and I have a lot of jam sessions near and some good teachers so I want to see what I can do with the first book to start..

I didn't see the first vidéo of CVH presenting the shapes but he recommends just the same thing I thought: using the shapes To have a squeleton, and then to complement this with licks we like, to give some life to it.
I Will make a chorus on honeysuckle rose and put it there ! It could help me To see where I can go with this plan

[dharma2020]

I love the herb ellis style, you can hear a lot of charlie christian influence.

The problem I see with the "All the shapes you are" book and the other Herb Ellis books is that the example licks are too long.
Christian already said correctly that short phrases are best to learn and memorize.

Another option is to just transcribe and build your favorite vocabulary and write it down in guitar pro.
Basically your own lick library. That's at least my plan.
It's also cheaper but takes more effort, but feels more rewarding and better for retention.
Then it's just a matter of connecting the licks with scales or building your own variations.

[Ivan2794]

Yep I agree.
I recently bought a recorder. I isolated the licks I like in Herb Ellis books (RC and ATTYA, I didnt started blues yet) and registered them.
To work them, I listen to my recording and try to find the notes I don't remember..
For the moment, I find it quite usefull