Basic substitution question

[AGreatApe]

It's common to substitute a diatonic arpeggio built on 3rd of a chord. So, EGBD instead of CEGB. Does that work just the same when the sub yields the Dom7 of the key? Such as GBDF instead of EGDB?

[James W]

It's common to substitute a diatonic arpeggio built on 3rd of a chord. So, EGBD instead of CEGB. Does that work just the same when the sub yields the Dom7 of the key? Such as GBDF instead of EGDB?

In such a case you'd more likely sharpen the 11, I believe. So that'd be F sharp.

[Strat-itis]

What James said. They don't always function the same. When doing extension subs you have to be practical and use your ear about figuring out what will sound good.

In BH study you play every arpeggio that the chord scale yields. But then they don't all work.

My quick n ez go to ones are built on the 3rd for a 3-5-7-9 or built on the 7th for all the extensions, 7-9-11-13.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah in a vacuum I’d agree with what James said, but it’s not terribly unusual to see the F also.

Generally speaking, theory would probably dictate we be more picky about which notes go over a certain chord than we actually need to be in practice.

Hitting an F over the Em7 and resolving to an E is pretty normal.

I think the main issue is not the presence of an F, but that a G7 feels like it’s pulling to C, but an Em7 chord in the context of C major is usually a sub for the tonic. So you have a tension thing happening where the song is not really doing that.

Its a fine distinction but one that I think ends up being a bit more important than the categorization of avoid notes and allowable extensions.

[rpjazzguitar]

It's common to substitute a diatonic arpeggio built on 3rd of a chord. So, EGBD instead of CEGB. Does that work just the same when the sub yields the Dom7 of the key? Such as GBDF instead of EGDB?

Not sure I understand the question.

If you start with CEGB and substitute an arp built on the 3rd, you get EGBD, by stacking thirds.

But, GBDF is built on the 5th of CEGB. Is that what you mean or am I missing something?

If it was built on the third, the G would imply Eb as the root. If it's built on the 5th, it's a G7.

So I'm not sure what you mean by "does that work the same ... ". What is subbing for what in this question?

If you're asking if you can sub GBDF (a G7 chord) for a CEGB (Cmaj7), the answer is that if you lean on GBDF, it won't sound like a tonic. If you have, say, two bars of Cmaj7, you can sometimes go back and forth, like a quick G7 on a weak beat and that can sound good, but you can't resolve to G7, if that's what you're asking.

Sorry if I've misunderstood any of this.

[James W]

Not sure I understand the question.

If you start with CEGB and substitute an arp built on the 3rd, you get EGBD, by stacking thirds.

But, GBDF is built on the 5th of CEGB. Is that what you mean or am I missing something?

If it was built on the third, the G would imply Eb as the root. If it's built on the 5th, it's a G7.

So I'm not sure what you mean by "does that work the same ... ". What is subbing for what in this question?

If you're asking if you can sub GBDF (a G7 chord) for a CEGB (Cmaj7), the answer is that if you lean on GBDF, it won't sound like a tonic. If you have, say, two bars of Cmaj7, you can sometimes go back and forth, like a quick G7 on a weak beat and that can sound good, but you can't resolve to G7, if that's what you're asking.

Sorry if I've misunderstood any of this.

The OP is talking about playing something from the third of Emin7 within the key of C major, which would yield the notes GBDF diatonically.

[rpjazzguitar]

The OP is talking about playing something from the third of Emin7 within the key of C major, which would yield the notes GBDF diatonically.

Got it. Thanks.

Answer: Doesn't work the same. If you stack thirds in Cmaj, you get CEBD DFAC EGBD FACE GBDF ACEG and BDFA.

They are Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bm7b5.

They can be divided into two types, tonic and dominant. Cmaj7 Em7 Am7 are tonics in this system. Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 (both types) and Bm7b5 are dominants. I learned this from Warren Nunes.

You can try substituting within a type, like Em7 for Cmaj7. Or Dm7 for G7. Changes the sound but not the type.

When you stack thirds starting with the third of Em7, you're moving from a thonic type to a dominant type. So, if the tune calls for one, it will sound off to play the other.

[Mick-7]

It's common to substitute a diatonic arpeggio built on 3rd of a chord. So, EGBD instead of CEGB. Does that work just the same when the sub yields the Dom7 of the key? Such as GBDF instead of EGDB?

Knowing chord synonyms will help you find chord substitutes....

In a major key, I maj.9 (no root) = IIIm7, per your example.

In a minor key, the I min chord is Im6 or Im#7. Im6 = VIm7b5 = IV9 (no root), e.g., Em6 (E-G-B-C#) = C#m7b5 = A9 (no root).

"If a 6 turned out to be a 9, I don't mind." - Jimi Hendrix

[AGreatApe]

Thank you everyone. Question well answered!

[ragman1]

Does that work just the same when the sub yields the Dom7 of the key?

In short, no, although the G7 can be used in conjunction with the C. It's quite prevalent in old blues songs where they play progressions like

C - F - C/G7 - C

and that sort of thing. But that's not really the question here.

Diatonic extensions (and therefore subs) that work on major chords don't go further than the first one, i.e. the Em7 on CM7 which produces CM9. Any others after that will include an F which clashes with the E in the C triad, C E G.

Consequently composers and musicians began to augment the F to F# to solve the problem, thus you get CEGBDF# (CM9#11).

(Sharpening the 11th to avoid clashing isn't a particularly modern idea, it goes way back in history but became established in more recent times, especially in jazz).

[GuyBoden]

The Dim scale from the 3rd of the dominant chord is a classic sound.

So, over a G7, I like playing the dim scale notes B D F G# G.

For a more vanilla sound, I play the scale notes B D F A G.

(The dim scale has been sadly neglected in recent Jazz theory. IMHO)

[nbevan3]

The Dim scale from the 3rd of the dominant chord is a classic sound.

So, over a G7, I like playing the dim scale notes B D F G# G.

I think of this as a G7b9 arpeggio rather than a diminished - but that might just be the way my brain works

[bako]

Given that chords are often built in stacks of 3rds means that an upper and lower neighbor 7th chord shares 3 of 4 notes in common. This means that it will very often be true that both chords can harmonize the same melody. Within a major scale the 4th degree is the strongest signifier of dominant and subdominant function.A sus4 tonic chord lives somewhere between function
Register of the voicing can also be a relevant factor when wanting to superimpose upper or lower structures. Voiced too low can confuses the root function of the chord.

Am7>Cma7<Em7
Bm7b5>Dm7<Fma7
Cma7>Em7<G7
Dm7>Fma7<Am7
Em7>G7<Bm7b5
Fma7>Am7<Cma7
G7>Bm7b5<Dm7

Another interesting fact is that within a 7 note scale, every 7th chord will share at least one note with every 7th chord.

chords a 3rd or 6th above or below share 3 of 4
chords a 4th or 5th above or below share 2 of 4
chords a 2nd or 7th above or below share 1 of 4

[GuyBoden]

I think of this as a G7b9 arpeggio rather than a diminished - but that might just be the way my brain works

I was taught altered 7th scale arpeggios too. (CST)

Both are good to know

The classic diminished arpeggio is the b3rd, b5th, 6th and 1st notes of the diminished scale.

So, B D F Ab over a G7b9

[Christian Miller]

It's common to substitute a diatonic arpeggio built on 3rd of a chord. So, EGBD instead of CEGB. Does that work just the same when the sub yields the Dom7 of the key? Such as GBDF instead of EGDB?

Short answer - what do you think? Try it and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AGreatApe]

Short answer - what do you think? Try it and see.

Oh, I did that decades ago. But I'm now wanting to understand (some) theory behind old habits, and maybe change the habit. Such as when I compose a phrase or lick that _almost works, I want to know why or why not before I write it down for memorization.

Thanks everyone.

[Christian Miller]

I was taught altered 7th scale arpeggios too. (CST)

Both are good to know

The classic diminished arpeggio is the b3rd, b5th, 6th and 1st notes of the diminished scale.

So, B D F Ab over a G7b9

Nothing to do with the diminished scale, it's from the minor key.

you can build a diminished scale upper structure on such chord though if you like. E triad on G7 is the classic one.

[ragman1]

when I compose a phrase or lick that _almost works, I want to know why or why not.

A lot depends on your criteria for building licks. A lick being 'correct' theoretically doesn't automatically mean it's going to sound right in context. Personally, I'd work it the other way round. If it sounds good but doesn't necessarily fit the theory I've got I'd want to understand why. Easier said than done sometimes!

When this happened to me, quite often it was just that I hadn't played it well. Right notes, right subs or whatever, but my delivery wasn't very artful. But I definitely know most playing problems are solved on the instrument, not on paper.

[pamosmusic]

Oh, I did that decades ago. But I'm now wanting to understand (some) theory behind old habits, and maybe change the habit. Such as when I compose a phrase or lick that _almost works, I want to know why or why not before I write it down for memorization.

Thanks everyone.

Not to be annoying but theory doesn’t tell you why. It will help you categorize the what.

So if the F# sounds good and the F doesn’t, you label the sounds so that you know that they do. And there’s more nuance if you’ve done that, which is to say that I think my answer and James’s answer are the closest you could get without a particular line to look at.

[GuyBoden]

Nothing to do with the diminished scale, it's from the minor key.

Read this JazzGuitar.be lessons link:
Jazzguitar.be/blog/diminished-scale/ Scale - Theory, Patterns & Licks

[ragman1]

Solos over a dim7 chord can be done with the dim scale and the relevant harmonic minor scale because the 7th, leading chord, is a dim chord. i.e. Bo7 - Cm(maj)7.

But there are all sorts of things that work over a dim7 chord in context (because of the 4-note symmetry):

Bdim7:

A harm
F# harm
Eb harm

Also:

B dim: B C# D E F G G# Bb
A dim: B C D Eb F F# G# A

I use melodic minor over dim chords too.

[GuyBoden]

Solos over a dim7 chord can be done with the dim scale and the relevant harmonic minor scale because the 7th, leading chord, is a dim chord. i.e. Bo7 - Cm(maj)7.

But there are all sorts of things that work over a dim7 chord in context (because of the 4-note symmetry):

Bdim7:

A harm
F# harm
Eb harm

Also:

B dim: B C# D E F G G# Bb
A dim: B C D Eb F F# G# A

I use melodic minor over dim chords too.

I not sure what Christian seems to be disagreeing with, but Dim arpeggios sound great over 7b9 chords.
Maybe, the JGO forum fog has seeped in again.

[Christian Miller]

Read this JazzGuitar.be lessons link:
Jazzguitar.be/blog/diminished-scale/ Scale - Theory, Patterns & Licks

Yes I understand what the diminished scale is.

The issue is the sentence 'the diminished chord comes from the diminished scale". The article doesn't say this as far as I can see BTW.

Most jazz musicians today I don't think make a thorough study of the dim7 chord because truth be told they don't come up that much. Many of them have been subbed out for various II-V's in modern lead sheets of tunes. The most common use of the diminished scale is actually over the dominant chord, in its half-whole mode. It does sound good on a diminished chord though, if you know how to use it. So it gets taught as the scale for the diminished chord, hence the name. Trane popularised it in the late 50s. (Classical theorists call it the octatonic scale.)

But it comes from the minor key (harmonic minor) originally.

[GuyBoden]

Yes I understand what the diminished scale is.

The issue is the sentence 'the diminished chord comes from the diminished scale".

I don't remember stating that sentence or ever reading the sentence 'the diminished chord comes from the diminished scale".

[Christian Miller]

I don't remember stating that sentence or ever reading the sentence 'the diminished chord comes from the diminished scale".

Right you are.

Also sorry for being a pompous twit.