How to get to real improvisation?

[WannaBePlaya]

I've studied guitar, both classical and jazz on and off for over 40 years. I have a good understanding of music theory and a fair amount of technical skill, but I have never even come close to improvising over chord changes in anything like a satisfactory manner. Despite all of my effort, I really don't understand how one gets from practicing chords, scales, and arpeggios to real improvisation.

As I start again (I give up playing every few years due to disappointment in my progress) I'm trying to take a different approach to learning, but I am already sensing that what I'm doing isn't going to get me where I want to go. Because of all my years of practicing, I have a pretty good ear for scales and key. If I just turn on a song, I can improvise in a fairly musical manner. It certainly won't be perfect, but I will quickly find the key, and there is some direction to the music. However, if the key is constantly changing, as it does in jazz, I will stumble as I find the appropriate notes.

The solution that I've always pursued, and which all of jazz instruction seems to encourage, is to work on my scales, the diatonic chords, and their arpeggios and then try to play the appropriate mode and hit chord tones as the chords change. Of course there's more to it than that, but this approach encourages me to repeat scales and arpeggios over and over in an effort to internalize them. This leads to building up motor patterns that will run those patterns, but don't help in making melody or lines intuitively. I seem to be able to do one or the other, but never both. The more mental capacity I use to think about the appropriate notes, the less I can hear or play musical ideas. Repetition does not seem to improve this significantly. Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music within all of those constantly changing patterns.

I've thought sometimes that maybe the solution is to learn to play entirely by ear--to get better at quickly hearing and responding to the changing chords and keys and just play instinctively. It's not hard to do when improvising in my head or by singing. I'm not sure if that's really possible on guitar, but in a way it seems like a better approach. At least I might be able to focus on musical ideas instead of memorized patterns.

How the heck do you get past this road block?! I'm sure this is a problem that most guitarists have struggled with. I'd really like to know how those of you who have accomplished it got there.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I've studied guitar, both classical and jazz on and off for over 40 years. I have a good understanding of music theory and a fair amount of technical skill, but I have never even come close to improvising over chord changes in anything like a satisfactory manner. Despite all of my effort, I really don't understand how one gets from practicing chords, scales, and arpeggios to real improvisation.

As I start again (I give up playing every few years due to disappointment in my progress) I'm trying to take a different approach to learning, but I am already sensing that what I'm doing isn't going to get me where I want to go. Because of all my years of practicing, I have a pretty good ear for scales and key. If I just turn on a song, I can improvise in a fairly musical manner. It certainly won't be perfect, but I will quickly find the key, and there is some direction to the music. However, if the key is constantly changing, as it does in jazz, I will stumble as I find the appropriate notes.

The solution that I've always pursued, and which all of jazz instruction seems to encourage, is to work on my scales, the diatonic chords, and their arpeggios and then try to play the appropriate mode and hit chord tones as the chords change. Of course there's more to it than that, but this approach encourages me to repeat scales and arpeggios over and over in an effort to internalize them. This leads to building up motor patterns that will run those patterns, but don't help in making melody or lines intuitively. I seem to be able to do one or the other, but never both. The more mental capacity I use to think about the appropriate notes, the less I can hear or play musical ideas. Repetition does not seem to improve this significantly. Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music within all of those constantly changing patterns.

I've thought sometimes that maybe the solution is to learn to play entirely by ear--to get better at quickly hearing and responding to the changing chords and keys and just play instinctively. It's not hard to do when improvising in my head or by singing. I'm not sure if that's really possible on guitar, but in a way it seems like a better approach. At least I might be able to focus on musical ideas instead of memorized patterns.

How the heck do you get past this road block?! I'm sure this is a problem that most guitarists have struggled with. I'd really like to know how those of you who have accomplished it got there.

Two quick questions; do you ever work in freeform playing and do you sing what you’re playing (unison lines etc)?

[Rob MacKillop]

Have you studied decorating arpeggios and adding passing notes to scales? Have you studied decorating a melody? Had a deep dive into rhythm/timing/accents within solos? Studied and analysed your fav players? Improvised new melodies to standard chord sequences?

You can learn scales and arpeggios until you are blue in the face, and not sound like you’re playing jazz. It’s the stuff you can do in and around them that jazz players indulge in, melodically and rhythmically, that contribute a lot to the jazz sound and vibe.

Believe me when I say I sympathise with you.

[Strat-itis]

The solution that I've always pursued, and which all of jazz instruction seems to encourage, is to work on my scales, the diatonic chords, and their arpeggios and then try to play the appropriate mode and hit chord tones as the chords change. Of course there's more to it than that, but this approach encourages me to repeat scales and arpeggios over and over in an effort to internalize them. This leads to building up motor patterns that will run those patterns, but don't help in making melody or lines intuitively. I seem to be able to do one or the other, but never both. The more mental capacity I use to think about the appropriate notes, the less I can hear or play musical ideas.

How the heck do you get past this road block?! I'm sure this is a problem that most guitarists have struggled with. I'd really like to know how those of you who have accomplished it got there.

The top paragraph is your problem. You have to be WAY more systematic about being musical than that. The abersold stick a scale to each chord is out the window. You will never get from thinking stick scale on chord in real time to music. You have to work out way more devices such as the ones Rob listed. If you don't know about them, you should study with a teacher. I recommend Open Studio because they have a boat load of teachers that you can choose from. Plus Chris Parks on guitar who teaches the BH method which I think is the best method to go from mechanics to music.

[Mick-7]

Well, Mark cut right to the chase, and you sort of answered your own question when you said:

I've thought sometimes that maybe the solution is to learn to play entirely by ear--to get better at quickly hearing and responding to the changing chords and keys and just play instinctively. It's not hard to do when improvising in my head or by singing. I'm not sure if that's really possible on guitar, but in a way it seems like a better approach. At least I might be able to focus on musical ideas instead of memorized patterns.

Yes, but not entirely by ear, that is the penultimate, just do more of it.

It's not hard to do when improvising in my head or by singing.

Are you doing that over the chord changes? And then playing those phrases? Doing it apart from hearing and/or thinking of the chord changes won't be of much use.

The solution that I've always pursued, and which all of jazz instruction seems to encourage, is to work on my scales, the diatonic chords, and their arpeggios and then try to play the appropriate mode and hit chord tones as the chords change. Of course there's more to it than that, but this approach encourages me to repeat scales and arpeggios over and over in an effort to internalize them. This leads to building up motor patterns that will run those patterns, but don't help in making melody or lines intuitively.

Sounds like you have the requisite technical skills, but you're not applying them in a practical manner, you should be creating musical phrases out of those scales and arpeggios.

Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music within all of those constantly changing patterns.

That would be Giant Steps, most jazz tunes are much simpler than that and stay in the same, or related, tonal centers for most of the tune.

[Cunamara]

The simplest advice: learn melodies to internalize how they work; learn to hum or sing the melodies first, then find them on the guitar. Using our voice makes them more a part of us.

Sing new melodies over songs (without a guitar in hand). Find those new melodies on the guitar. Sing while playing (you can hear Keith Jarrett and Jim Hall, among others, doing exactly this on recordings).

You're improvising.

Expand this by singing new notes into the melodies, like leading tones. Find those on the guitar.

Etc. This is infinite.

[vintagelove]

Ear training, and learning lines, applying them in their harmonic context, then changing up those lines to make them your own.

Kinda just like you did with learning to speak.

[ragman1]

'Real' improvisation as opposed to what?

[Gilpy]

For me, the key is to think of something melodic and then play what you hear in your head. Of course this must all be done in a fraction of a second.
You seem to have the technical skill to do this so maybe the problem is that you can’t break out of the patterns you’ve learned.
Make a conscious effort to ignore the obvious thing and go for something different, and trust your ears instead of your bag of tricks.

[starjasmine]

I have to +1 vintagelove's suggestion, and I want to expand on it a bit to clarify what I mean by "ear training:" it's connecting your ears, fingers and theoretical knowledge seamlessly. When you hear a melody, can you immediately sing it, play it, and write it down? That's what I mean by "connecting." It is the standard university approach to harmony, and it works.

Similarly, you should learn to identify by sound the four main chord types: maj, min, aug, dim. You need to identify "colors" immediately, without thinking, just as easily as you can tell red from blue or sweet from bitter. After you learn to hear triads, learn to hear extensions: 7ths, 9ths, b9, #9, 11ths, #11, 13 all have a characteristic sound. You can tell Italian food from Mexican food without analyzing the component parts. Same for a 13th chord vs a simple triad or an altered dominant.

Like any advanced musical skill, this takes time (years) and it takes daily practice that is separate from mechanical skills, repertoire and study of harmony. Seems that you have a lot of the guitar-playing skills down. And you have a lot of the theoretical skills down. You need to connect these knowledge sets through your ear, the end goal being the ability to play whatever you think of. Someone in this thread mentioned singing what you play - that's a great way to develop the ability to play what you sing/think of.

HTH

SJ

[Mick-7]

After you learn to hear triads, learn to hear extensions: 7ths, 9ths, b9, #9, 11ths, #11, 13 all have a characteristic sound. You can tell Italian food from Mexican food without analyzing the component parts. Same for a 13th chord vs a simple triad or an altered dominant.

Most people will not get so particular, they learn to recognize a chord progression when they hear it, may not even be able to name the individual chords, it's not necessary to play well. In fact, focusing on individual chords (rather than sets of chords) will tend to produce less coherent solos. But I agree that applied ear training is essential.

'Real' improvisation as opposed to what?

Versus simply outlining the changes, and not making a musical statement, is how I interpreted it.

[kris]

Playing 'real jazz" is fun.
First you have to practice for hours and then there is pleasure when something good comes out of this arduous exercise.
Constant self-criticism helps and develops in this.

[wolflen]

This is what helped me.

Do you/can you record what you play..can you work with backing tracks?

You have to begin to actually hear what YOUR playing as a listener and not a player.

You may surprise yourself.

Start with basic blues .. slowly develop a solo..key word..EXPERIMENT in this case wrong notes are good. Think Scofield

Record this if you can..do this in several keys

Now make the progression a bit more challenging

Blues in G example use these chords

G13 to Bb13 // Eb9 to C9 // F9 to D9

There is alot of chromatic runs and lines you can use in stuff like this..create a melody for it..and again..do it in several keys.

Again record what your playing..you will get some new ideas - if you know how to write notation jot down some new lines you played

and move on ... push yourself try ALL Blues by Miles..try and get some of the solo lines in your playing

again recording your own playing will give you insight to how you play/sound..wrong notes and all..and new ideas will emerge on how change what you do/dont like

another tune to work with - fairly basic but opens some doors to explore--again in several keys..try minor/major third higher/lower--fifths cycle etc

On Green Dolphin Street

Hope this helps

[lammie200]

A lot of good suggestions above. I usually have more than one thought going on while improvising, but the one constant is that if a phrase, line, note, chord, arpeggiated chord, etc., doesn’t sound right because it doesn’t fit with the underlying elemental flow in the song is to just shift a half step.

Depending on the underlying melody it could be a half step up or a half step down. But it doesn’t have to end there for a so-called “resolution.” I can play off that half step change to go back where I was and play through the song changes to broaden the improvisation. That half step can be a pivot point for a key change or counterpoint, accentuate a progression, etc.

I recognize that this may sound simplistic. But cluttered thinking while I am improvising is not where I want to be. And really when I am doing this there is a lot more to it than just shifting a half step. There is rhythm, repetition, dynamics, the phrasing itself, etc. that have to be incorporated as well. It’s like the solutions for getting “unstuck” overshadow being “stuck” by such force that you are never actually “stuck”. That’s me FWIW.

[pauln]

Could we hear an example of what you are describing?

[starjasmine]

Most people will not get so particular, they learn to recognize a chord progression when they hear it, may not even be able to name the individual chords, it's not necessary to play well.

I guess it depends on what your definition of playing well is, and what standards you want to set for yourself. I personally know many musicians (including guitarists) who absolutely can recognize everything they hear or plan to play. Full stop. Are most hobbyist guitarists playing at that level? no. Does anyone I'd call for a gig know how do to that? Hell, yeah.

In fact, focusing on individual chords (rather than sets of chords) will tend to produce less coherent solos.

Absolutely. But I didn't suggest that one should focus on individual chords. I wasn't trying to explain everything about improvising in a single forum post; I was providing MY answer to the OPs question about "what's the thing I'm missing?" For me, that thing is the well-trained ear as the connector between the mental model and the fingers. It's a critical skill to have; it's not a comprehensive methodology for soloing. It's the engine, not the whole car.

In this approach, one needs to hear chords as parts of a progression. Progressions outline key centers, substitutions and modulations that decorate the melody; the melody defines the song form. When I'm playing, I know where I was, where I am now, and where I'm going to go - in the progression, in the key center, in the song form. This is what works FOR ME and for many players who perform at a pro level.

Yes, it's a lot, and it takes time and effort to learn this skill set. But it is an absolutely attainable and common skillset.

Now... I'm not saying that it is impossible to improvise without that skill set. Mick's point is valid - there are people who play well without knowing any of the above. I think they are the people who are particular about what they play, listening to themselves with very a critical ear (as kris or wolf suggested) and developing an approach and a vocabulary that way. But I didn't think that the OP was asking that question. The OP seemed to be saying "I know all this theory and all these scales and I can't improvise well - why?" For me, the ear training that connected my mental model to my fingers opened a lot of doors.

Another critical skill is learning to "think like a jazz player" by transcribing solos and learning tunes that attract your ear. Again, FOR ME understanding the theoretical underpinning of a melody or harmony that sounds cool is what allows me to use it in other contexts. The idea is not to be able to regurgitate Bird solos but to understand how those interesting-sounding melodies/harmonies work so you can use them to build your own ideas. Learning tunes and solos informs your concept, which helps you to think of more interesting lines; that mental model of harmony is what allows you to figure out how to realize those ideas on the fretboard against the chord progression that is hanging in the air at the moment... all of this sounds like a lot, and in a way it is, but over time you just build those skills a bit at a time. Starting with connecting your ears to your harmony knowledge and your fretboard knowledge... at least, that's what worked for me.

[Strat-itis]

Joe's thread about bad advice being given to beginners is exemplified here. Improving your ear to wing it better is NOT the answer. Yes you need aural work but that is not the only part of it. If that's all you do it still leads to more dicking around.

Playing effectively comes from competence in 4 areas, not 1:

Ear
Theory
Technique
Creativity

The OP has been using the classic abersold plan of take raw theory and try to run it in real time which is a massive fail obviously. Saying for him to just put his eggs in the ear basket is the same mistake. The actual effective plan goes like this:

Ear: Yes, the advice under ear here was good. Take existing melodies and fit them in. Make up your own melodies. Try to sing stuff. Record etc. Develop your ear so you have instinct about what rhythms, notes, and phrasing to use to make the melodies viable or good. Not just fit whatever based on theory.

Theory: Theory is needed but it is NOT just see chord stick scale on it. Melody contour can be expressed 4 ways: scales, arps, wider intervals, and chromatic devices. So if one is only using scales or scales and arps it isn't how melody is shaped in the wild. Develop a plan to apply the raw theory into views which approximate actual music. Look for lessons that support this.

Technique: Improv is NOT just making up crap in real time. That is part of it, but you must have technique worked out, where your hands can execute material instinctively and fluently from repetition. Build a solo for 1 chorus of a jazz bluez or a rhythm changes a section. It should be composed of a few phrases. Work out the technique to play those phrases with good animation. Make up exercises that fit the playing you use.

Creativity: Scheme about what style you would like to exemplify and then target what explicit devices would support that.

OP is long gone, but an accurate post was needed.

[Christian Miller]

I've studied guitar, both classical and jazz on and off for over 40 years. I have a good understanding of music theory and a fair amount of technical skill, but I have never even come close to improvising over chord changes in anything like a satisfactory manner. Despite all of my effort, I really don't understand how one gets from practicing chords, scales, and arpeggios to real improvisation.

As I start again (I give up playing every few years due to disappointment in my progress) I'm trying to take a different approach to learning, but I am already sensing that what I'm doing isn't going to get me where I want to go. Because of all my years of practicing, I have a pretty good ear for scales and key. If I just turn on a song, I can improvise in a fairly musical manner. It certainly won't be perfect, but I will quickly find the key, and there is some direction to the music. However, if the key is constantly changing, as it does in jazz, I will stumble as I find the appropriate notes.

The solution that I've always pursued, and which all of jazz instruction seems to encourage, is to work on my scales, the diatonic chords, and their arpeggios and then try to play the appropriate mode and hit chord tones as the chords change. Of course there's more to it than that, but this approach encourages me to repeat scales and arpeggios over and over in an effort to internalize them. This leads to building up motor patterns that will run those patterns, but don't help in making melody or lines intuitively. I seem to be able to do one or the other, but never both. The more mental capacity I use to think about the appropriate notes, the less I can hear or play musical ideas. Repetition does not seem to improve this significantly. Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music within all of those constantly changing patterns.

I've thought sometimes that maybe the solution is to learn to play entirely by ear--to get better at quickly hearing and responding to the changing chords and keys and just play instinctively. It's not hard to do when improvising in my head or by singing. I'm not sure if that's really possible on guitar, but in a way it seems like a better approach. At least I might be able to focus on musical ideas instead of memorized patterns.

How the heck do you get past this road block?! I'm sure this is a problem that most guitarists have struggled with. I'd really like to know how those of you who have accomplished it got there.

If you want to play your own music by ear, how much have practiced playing other peoples music by ear?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[djg]

I've studied guitar, both classical and jazz on and off for over 40 years. I have a good understanding of music theory and a fair amount of technical skill, but I have never even come close to improvising over chord changes in anything like a satisfactory manner. Despite all of my effort, I really don't understand how one gets from practicing chords, scales, and arpeggios to real improvisation.

As I start again (I give up playing every few years due to disappointment in my progress) I'm trying to take a different approach to learning, but I am already sensing that what I'm doing isn't going to get me where I want to go. Because of all my years of practicing, I have a pretty good ear for scales and key. If I just turn on a song, I can improvise in a fairly musical manner. It certainly won't be perfect, but I will quickly find the key, and there is some direction to the music. However, if the key is constantly changing, as it does in jazz, I will stumble as I find the appropriate notes.

The solution that I've always pursued, and which all of jazz instruction seems to encourage, is to work on my scales, the diatonic chords, and their arpeggios and then try to play the appropriate mode and hit chord tones as the chords change. Of course there's more to it than that, but this approach encourages me to repeat scales and arpeggios over and over in an effort to internalize them. This leads to building up motor patterns that will run those patterns, but don't help in making melody or lines intuitively. I seem to be able to do one or the other, but never both. The more mental capacity I use to think about the appropriate notes, the less I can hear or play musical ideas. Repetition does not seem to improve this significantly. Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music within all of those constantly changing patterns.

I've thought sometimes that maybe the solution is to learn to play entirely by ear--to get better at quickly hearing and responding to the changing chords and keys and just play instinctively. It's not hard to do when improvising in my head or by singing. I'm not sure if that's really possible on guitar, but in a way it seems like a better approach. At least I might be able to focus on musical ideas instead of memorized patterns.

How the heck do you get past this road block?! I'm sure this is a problem that most guitarists have struggled with. I'd really like to know how those of you who have accomplished it got there.

i guess you just don't like jazz music. how do i know? because you never mention it. jazz music is an idiom.

"Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music" how do you make sure this doesnt become prog rock by accident?

[Mick-7]

I guess it depends on what your definition of playing well is, and what standards you want to set for yourself. I personally know many musicians (including guitarists) who absolutely can recognize everything they hear or plan to play. Full stop. Are most hobbyist guitarists playing at that level? no. Does anyone I'd call for a gig know how do to that? Hell, yeah.

I said they may be unable to name the chords, but they can identify them by ear and improvise over them.

[Strat-itis]

i guess you just don't like jazz music. how do i know? because you never mention it. jazz music is an idiom.

"Having to shift mode or arpeggios every four beats through a song leaves me with no capacity to make music" how do you make sure this doesnt become prog rock by accident?

Don't condemn a beginner dude. That's pretty arbitrary.

[GuyBoden]

I recommend getting a good Jazz teacher.

(I know this is the usual advice, but a good Jazz teacher will help you improve.)

[joe2758]

As you can see, there are as many approaches as there are people. You save years of time by finding a teacher even just for for a year, or half a year, a month...anything. ONE teacher. They are everywhere online. PM if you want names.

[Tal_175]

As you can see, there are as many approaches as there are people. You save years of time by finding a teacher even just for for a year, or half a year, a month...anything. ONE teacher. They are everywhere online. PM if you want names.

There are also as many approaches as there are teachers. Most people tend to teach what worked for them.

[joe2758]

True, but the difference is some sense of cohesiveness-- plus a good teacher will focus on the student's style rather than just what they themselves did. Not every teacher is the best, but I think it is important to stick with one for at least some period of time. There are great teachers here, but I wouldn't recommend going down the path of 2nd and 3rd opinions even with them until a basic understanding of how things work is developed.

edit: to clarify my emphasis is on the "one." Teacher is the best choice, otherwise do one youtube channel, one book etc