Wes style chord scales lesson

[Tal_175]

We can harmonize all standards using only I, IV, V7 (and the minor version), and use triads and plain 7th for the dominant. That would make the diatonic functions really blunt and in-your-face. I think a lot of jazz harmony is about finding different ways of softening the functions of chords. People say that altered tensions increase the tendency of dominants to resolve. But in the way I hear it, even the most altered dominant going to I is a more understated resolution than the plain dominant going to I.

[AllanAllen]

I’m not sure I’d say ‘commonly’

There is blurring between the dominant and subdominant functions in jazz. But they are not totally the same thing. It’s more that the leading tone isn’t always used.

It’s aggravating the theory books get so much into the weeds on this about the 13th on the II chord “giving the dominant away” and all this stuff. Actual jazz players just use what they like.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My main complaint with jazz education is it's too far in the weeds. The most common advice is "learn tunes by ear" but the most common discussion is some deep in the weeds theory I could never apply to a tune that night.

As a side compliment, I liked your reasoning for using G altered in the video, because jazz. That's about all the theory explanation I need at this point.

[Christian Miller]

I wonder what you, (or others if they care to share?) choose to play against the IV chord, even for just the 3 examples I mentioned earlier? T or D? Or S??

Usually subdominant from what I’ve looked at

S goes on D, but really not the other way around…

But in jazz subdominant is usually preceded with a I7 chord so a semi modulation. Otherwise it’s just part of a dominant chord anyway really.

[rpjazzguitar]

I might mention that I left out a G root in the first category. That's because I can't recall how Warren Nunes taught it. It may be that he suggested Gmaj7#11 as a Type I chord with a non-diatonic C#, but I don't know for certain. Just a Gmajor triad would make sense, or maybe a G6, but I don't recall hearing that from Warren.

[Christian Miller]

My main complaint with jazz education is it's too far in the weeds. The most common advice is "learn tunes by ear" but the most common discussion is some deep in the weeds theory I could never apply to a tune that night.

As a side compliment, I liked your reasoning for using G altered in the video, because jazz. That's about all the theory explanation I need at this point.

My biggest struggle as a teacher has always been how to stop getting into the weeds because I just get there myself or because very intelligent students (which is most of them) are naturally curious.

In short it doesn’t matter why. The why is - because that’s what people do in the style.

But tbh it’s the main rationale for the music because it certainly isn’t money, fame or popularity haha

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

I wonder what you, (or others if they care to share?) choose to play against the IV chord, even for just the 3 examples I mentioned earlier? T or D? Or S??

Major, lydian, or melodic minor, depending on the progression.

Example: #4/#11 & #5/b6 would be the most commonly added scale tones; so C^7 could be the C major scale, or C lydian (= G major, provides #11), or A melodic minor (provides #5/b6th), etc. I usually don't think of the IV chord as having a dominant function.

[Mick-7]

I think this concept may be familiar to many of you, but I’ll post this video here anyway

Quick hack that turns boring SCALES into JAZZ!

Christian, per Allan's question ( here: Wes style chord scales lesson ), how do you see augmented scale chord phrases (arpeggios) fitting into this approach?

[Christian Miller]

Christian, per Allan's question ( here: Wes style chord scales lesson ), how do you see augmented scale chord phrases (arpeggios) fitting into this approach?

No idea I’ve never knowingly used the augmented scale, or seen anyone I’ve transcribed use it. Maybe it’ll show up one day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

I meant using the augmented arp in the stacked triads.

Seemed like Mick answered it, it’ll show up in melodic minor.

I could write it out, but I’ve got comic books to read

[Mick-7]

No idea I’ve never knowingly used the augmented scale, or seen anyone I’ve transcribed use it. Maybe it’ll show up one day.

Oh, I didn't mean the augmented scale per se, just augmented (#5) phrases, which could come from the whole tone or melodic minor scales. I think you mentioned playing b5's & #5's over G7, but I didn't see how that was connected to your Dorian mode discussion.

[rpjazzguitar]

I meant using the augmented arp in the stacked triads.

Seemed like Mick answered it, it’ll show up in melodic minor.

I could write it out, but I’ve got comic books to read

I don't think I understand the issue.

We were talking about 13th chords. Are we still talking about 13ths?

I understand maj13, min13 and dominant 13. If you want, say, Cmaj13#5 (which I can't recall ever seeing, although maj7#5 are common) you raise the G to a G#. It's functionally different. I usually see maj7#5 as a passing chord to major.

If you want Dm13#5 (you do see m7#5, but I've never seen m13#5) you raise the A to A#.

G13#5 (usually you see G7b13) you raise the D to D#. But more commonly, you see the E lowered to Eb.

m7#5 usually sounds tonic-y to me, but I don't think I'm able to characterize it that way.

In the 13th discussion it was ways of organizing white keys. In the #5 discussion, it's which black key to substitute. Seems to me to be a different kind of discussion, but, as I said at the start, I don't understand it.

From my usual approach, I would need to figure out where (and which) the #5 chord could be used in comping and get an idea of the sound/function. Then figure out which scrap of theory is going to help me solo over it, if I can't just hear it.

When I think about it, I end up thinking about which chords take a #5 and why. I can't wrap my mind easily around the idea of raising the 5 of a scale and then figuring out where to apply it, except by thinking about comping.

[Mick-7]

I don't think I understand the issue. We were talking about 13th chords. Are we still talking about 13ths?

The original point was about a Dm13 chord, thinking of it as two or more different chords or triads. Then Christian mentioned a triad "ladder," whereupon Allan walked under it and the trouble began!

[AllanAllen]

The original point was about a Dm13 chord, thinking of it as two or more different chords or triads. Then Christian mentioned a triad "ladder," whereupon Allan walked under it and the trouble began!

Yes

[Tal_175]

This thread is pulling rpjazzguitar back into the dark side.

[Christian Miller]

I meant using the augmented arp in the stacked triads.

Seemed like Mick answered it, it’ll show up in melodic minor.

I could write it out, but I’ve got comic books to read

Oh yeah, that’s right. Eg the aug triad is in the G7alt shape.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

I meant using the augmented arp in the stacked triads.

Seemed like Mick answered it, it’ll show up in melodic minor.

I could write it out, but I’ve got comic books to read

Allan, Re: including the augmented triad in the dorian scale, I just posted ideas on that here: Slonimsky Curiosities

[olejason]

Nice lesson, thanks. As someone who doesn't really learn from, or enjoy, "in the weeds" level of jazz theory I thought the level of information in the lesson was great. It's enough to get an understanding of what's happening when transcribing lines without turning into a mental exercise for curiosity's sake.

[Christian Miller]

Nice lesson, thanks. As someone who doesn't really learn from, or enjoy, "in the weeds" level of jazz theory I thought the level of information in the lesson was great. It's enough to get an understanding of what's happening when transcribing lines without turning into a mental exercise for curiosity's sake.

Thanks. People seemed to really like this one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

Thanks. People seemed to really like this one.

Well done but do people really not practice scales in various intervals? I would think it's obvious that one needs to do that.

[Christian Miller]

Well done but do people really not practice scales in various intervals? I would think it's obvious that one needs to do that.

If I’ve learned one thing from YouTube - whatever that thing you thought was obvious and everyone did it? No, actually.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

Well done but do people really not practice scales in various intervals? I would think it's obvious that one needs to do that.

I do scales in intervals all the time but in the academic way Christian shows. It’s hard to play melodically while restricting to one position. I’m thinking about too much to play.

Having a 2-3 note cluster and sliding up makes it simpler for whatever reason.

[Christian Miller]

And to be fair to myself, it is something I took directly from Wes. So it’s not just a theoretical idea, but something very musical you can hear Wes do on loads of solos. Not just the notes but the way they are played.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

It’s almost like we should study what those guys did.

[Mick-7]

It’s almost like we should study what those guys did.

Woah, there's a revolutionary idea!

Would put a whole lot of academics out of work.