Another Van Epps thread

[Woodstove]

I just started his Guitar Methods PDF (just bought the actual book on eBay, it's on the way. I'm hoping my older eyes will benefit since clarity on the pdf is iffy). I discovered him recently on this wonderful forum with a long discussion embedded in a broader topic. I tried to find it again for this post but could not, thus, another GVE thread.

I find his system to be extremely effective. I translate his fingering to songs (mostly mine) that I've played for decades and get increased fluidity and ideas right away. And I'm still on the first set. I should add that before introducing his system he has 2-3 pages of the most useful information about basic technique. It in fact is the best discussion I have ever seen on fretting for instance in the fewest words possible.

But I have a nagging question that began within minutes as it has to do with the diatonic 6 in the very first excercise. I expect Am but he writes a first inversion F triad. Sounds fine and cool fingering to the next dim chord, but isn't it "supposed" to be Am?

Singer/Songwriter, recording and performance studio owner (Woodstove Studios), weekly radio show host on MVY radio playing concerts recorded here alternating with conversations with the artists.......and newly a guitar slave. Home | Woodstove Studios | music venue and recording studio | Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, USA

[Mick-7]

I just started his Guitar Methods PDF....

But I have a nagging question that began within minutes as it has to do with the diatonic 6 in the very first excercise. I expect Am but he writes a first inversion F triad. Sounds fine and cool fingering to the next dim chord, but isn't it "supposed" to be Am?

Am would duplicate the note E in the previous chord in the series, which was a rootless C7 (G-Bb-E), a.k.a., Gm6/Edim, and you'd skip the note F (melody note) in the sequence.

And it's not a series of simple triads, i.e., F-A-C, G-Bb-D, major, minor, diminished, etc., but of diatonic major chord forms; F-A-D (F6), G-Bb-E (C7 no root), A-C-F (F), etc.

He implies they are all Major chords ("With Major Chords") in the exercise's title but does not explain how that dictates his chord voicings, thus your confusion.

P.S. - Here's a long thread on George Van Eps which you were wise not to extend:
George Van Eps - Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar

[Rob MacKillop]

Woodstove, you might be interested in this page of my archtop website, where I have videos of many of the exercises in the book: GVEps – ArchtopGuitar.net

As for the FMajor instead of the Am, there is a recording of him discussing a number of things, one being this chord. Apparently it has confused and frustrated players for decades. His reasoning - that players of the day preferred major chords over minor (or something like that) - sounds nonsense. It should be Am in the sequence, HOWEVER, it is more useful as it outlines a rootless Dm7 chord, which is followed by a G7 and then a CMajor. In other words, it's a very useful ii/V7/I

For those who can't cope with the F chord, I suggest you search for the Ivor Mairants Complete & Up To Date Guitar Tutor in Theory and Practice (1965), which has the same exercises but with the Am in its place. You can read about this fascinating method book again on website: Ivor Mairants – ArchtopGuitar.net - there are some great arrangements: Chinatown and Over The Rainbow are featured on my site.

[Woodstove]

Thanks Mick. I follow you but II and III are both minor so it's not an all major chord scale. The key as you point out is the progression of the melody note.

[Woodstove]

Woodstove, you might be interested in this page of my archtop website, where I have videos of many of the exercises in the book: GVEps – ArchtopGuitar.net

As for the FMajor instead of the Am, there is a recording of him discussing a number of things, one being this chord. Apparently it has confused and frustrated players for decades. His reasoning - that players of the day preferred major chords over minor (or something like that) - sounds nonsense. It should be Am in the sequence, HOWEVER, it is more useful as it outlines a rootless Dm7 chord, which is followed by a G7 and then a CMajor. In other words, it's a very useful ii/V7/I

For those who can't cope with the F chord, I suggest you search for the Ivor Mairants Complete & Up To Date Guitar Tutor in Theory and Practice (1965), which has the same exercises but with the Am in its place. You can read about this fascinating method book again on website: Ivor Mairants – ArchtopGuitar.net - there are some great arrangements: Chinatown and Over The Rainbow are featured on my site.

Fantastic Rob!! I love this place, problem being is every other sentence adds to the opportunity, read work, that I could add to my practice!! That's what I mean by guitar slave. I'll check your stuff out asap. ....Peter

[Rob MacKillop]

In this video, starting at 1'27" I discuss and demonstrate some practical applications of these forms in Swing music:

I'm sure we could all come up with more.

You might have to push the volume for my voice, pull it back for the guitar. Or ask for your money back

[Mick-7]

Thanks Mick. I follow you but II and III are both minor so it's not an all major chord scale. The key as you point out is the progression of the melody note.

They are all major chord voicings, including the dominant chord, that's what he didn't explain:
I = F6, II = C7/G bass (no root), III = F, IV = Bb6, V = C6, VI = Bb, VII = C.

Versus triads which would be:: I = F, II = Gm, III = Am, IV= Bb, etc.

[Woodstove]

They are all major chord voicings, including the dominant chord, that's what he didn't explain:
I = F6, II = C7/G bass (no root), III = F, IV = Bb6, V = C6, VI = Bb, VII = C.

Versus triads which would be:: I = F, II = Gm, III = Am, IV= Bb, etc.

Thanks very much Mick.

[Mick-7]

I have Van Eps' massive Harmonic Mechanisms 3 Volume set, which I seem to have a great resistance to opening up and studying - could I have Epsophobia?

[Woodstove]

I have Van Eps' massive Harmonic Mechanisms 3 Volume set, which I seem to have a great resistance to opening up and studying - could I have Epsophobia?

I got it too right after getting the PDF. It more or less convinced me to spend all my time with the PDF (book soon) forever. I don’t think there’s any
chance to assimilate that set. As to your question, as a recently retired psychiatrist I’d say, if you think you have it, you probably don’t.

[Cunamara]

There are several lifetimes worth of work in the Harmonic Mechanisms book(s), nobody is gonna assimilate all of that except- maybe Steve Herberman. Rumor has it he got through all three books. It should be noted that George Van Eps himself didn't expect anyone to do that. His advice was dipping into the books, find something that interests you, work on it for a bit and then close the book and go do something else. The Harmonic Mechanisms books are not laid out progressively or sequentially.

[wolflen]

Van Eps, Ted Greene and others created encyclopedia style study references..and no..most of their work was not meant to be absorbed in total..at least not in one sitting.

Pick what you like..that appeals to you..work with it..digested it..then come back for more.

You could spend years going through their material.

[Woodstove]

There are several lifetimes worth of work in the Harmonic Mechanisms book(s), nobody is gonna assimilate all of that except- maybe Steve Herberman. Rumor has it he got through all three books. It should be noted that George Van Eps himself didn't expect anyone to do that. His advice was dipping into the books, find something that interests you, work on it for a bit and then close the book and go do something else. The Harmonic Mechanisms books are not laid out progressively or sequentially.

He left several lifetimes of work behind but only needed one to do it. Inspirational.

[Mick-7]

Thanks Mick. I follow you but II and III are both minor so it's not an all major chord scale. The key as you point out is the progression of the melody note.

They are all major chord voicings, including the dominant chord, that's what he didn't explain:
I = F6, II = C7/G bass (no root), III = F, IV = Bb6, V = C6, VI = Bb, VII = C.

Versus triads which would be:: I = F, II = Gm, III = Am, IV= Bb, etc.

To complete the analysis of this... as you said, there are minor triads in Van Eps series but they are synonyms of major chords.

So the functional chord relationships become clear, that is....

In F major, from the scale root:
I (F6 no 5th) = VI (Dm/F); V (C7/G bass, no root) = VII (E dim/G); I (F /A bass) = VI (Dm7/A, no root); IV (Bb6) = II (Gm/Bb);
V (C6) = III (Am/C); IV (Bb/D) = II (Gm7/D, no root); V (C /E bass) = III (Am7/E no root).

But I haven't gone further in the book so don't know where he goes with this.