Your Favourite 'Imposed Pentatonic' or 'imposed arpeggio'

[jamiehenderson1993]

I'm not sure if there is a 'proper' name for this, but I know I love playing EbMaj Pent or EbMaj7 Arp over a Cm chord.
So I would say my favourite would be playing a Maj Pent or Maj7 arp played a minor 3rd up on a Minor Chord.


What's your favourite sound for this type of thing, and is there a proper name for this?

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure if there is a 'proper' name for this, but I know I love playing EbMaj Pent or EbMaj7 Arp over a Cm chord.
So I would say my favourite would be playing a Maj Pent or Maj7 arp played a minor 3rd up on a Minor Chord.


What's your favourite sound for this type of thing, and is there a proper name for this?

With respect to chords, the term is “upper structure.”

Pentatonics I’m not sure, but the same term still makes sense.

“Superimposed” is also used for this kind of stuff too.

Favorite? Dunno, but I use m6 a half step up from the dominant a lottttttttt.

Some of that stuff is so common that it doesn’t usually get named.

[Mick-7]

With respect to chords, the term is “upper structure.”

Pentatonics I’m not sure, but the same term still makes sense.

“Superimposed” is also used for this kind of stuff too.

Favorite? Dunno, but I use m6 a half step up from the dominant a lottttttttt.

Some of that stuff is so common that it doesn’t usually get named.

I would think it's "upper structure" (chord extensions) if the notes are diatonic, as in the EbM7 over Cm example (God forbid you should call that a Cm9 arpeggio). Otherwise it's "superimposed," as in your m6 over dom.7th example, since your substitution contains non-diatonic/altered tones.

[CliffR]

I'm not sure if there is a 'proper' name for this, but I know I love playing EbMaj Pent or EbMaj7 Arp over a Cm chord.
So I would say my favourite would be playing a Maj Pent or Maj7 arp played a minor 3rd up on a Minor Chord.


What's your favourite sound for this type of thing, and is there a proper name for this?

Not just arps, of course, but Maj7 licks in general. Christian recently opened my mind/ears to this. I'd been looking at George Benson's solo over ATTYA for ideas, in particularly for Maj7 licks since normally I just stop resolve to a Maj7, play a note or two, and don't have anything interesting to play beyond that. In our lesson Christian pointed out I could play one of these Maj7 licks over the relative 6th (ie the EbM7 lick of Cm in your example). Around a week later Jens Larsen published a video where he talked about how Maj7 licks could be played not only over the relative 6, but also a tone down from a dominant. I've since been having loads of fun taking the handful of M7 licks I harvested and playing them over iis and Vs. In fact, I only just realised that the same M7 lick that fits the ii is also the one a whole step down from the V. Mind blown! And then I recalled how Christian pointed out I could take that same lick and flatten the third (keeping the 7th major) when playing it over the dominant, effectively giving the b9 on the dominant and reminding me that I'm really slow on the up-take. And shortly after I was looking at a Bird solo over the bridge of Dexterity and noticed how he first plays a M7 pivot arpeggio over the b7 of a dominant chord and immediately follows it up with an arpeggio off the third of the dominant. M7 licks are everywhere!

[pamosmusic]

I would think it's "upper structure" (chord extensions) if the notes are diatonic, as in the EbM7 over Cm example (God forbid you should call that a Cm9 arpeggio). Otherwise it's "superimposed," as in your m6 over dom.7th example, since your substitution contains non-diatonic/altered tones.

Nah.

G7(#5, b9)

G B D# F Ab

B D# F Ab (a.k.a. enharmonic equivalents for the Abm6) are the upper structure of that chord.

[Mick-7]

Nah.

G7(#5, b9)

G B D# F Ab

B D# F Ab (a.k.a. enharmonic equivalents for the Abm6) are the upper structure of that chord.

I'd think of it as superimposed because it comes from the Ab melodic minor scale. All the notes/chords from that scale can be played over G7.

[pamosmusic]

I'd think of it as superimposed because it comes from the Ab melodic minor scale. All the notes/chords from that scale can be played over G7.

Thats fine but an upper structure is a structure taken from the upper extensions of a chord.

[Mick-7]

Thats fine but an upper structure is a structure taken from the upper extensions of a chord.

Surely you'll want to make a distinction between diatonic/natural and nondiatonic/altered chord tones?

For example, would you call A6 an "upper structure" of Gmaj.7? (would give you G^13#11).

[pamosmusic]

Surely you'll want to make a distinction between diatonic/natural and nondiatonic/altered chord tones?

For example, would you call A6 an "upper structure" of Gmaj.7? (would give you G^13#11).

Yes I definitely would call it an upper structure.

Over G, a D triad is maj9 extensions … the A triad is maj9#11. How does having some other category to put each in help me?

And also, everything is diatonic to something. The A6 you mention would be diatonic to the Lydian, if that’s important for someone to know.

[Mick-7]

I was afraid you'd say that.

I don't know, I thought that theory-wise, "upper structure" in tonal/key-centered music implies chord tones within the key, whereas the chords you mentioned have been borrowed/superimposed from other keys, and therefore the two terms, upper structure and superimposed, are not synonymous.

[pamosmusic]

I was afraid you'd say that.

I don't know, I thought that theory-wise, "upper structure" in tonal/key-centered music implies chord tones within the key, whereas the chords you mentioned have been borrowed/superimposed from other keys, and therefore the two terms, upper structure and superimposed, are not synonymous.

So many of these terms have a wide gray area in the middle (see the 1000 threads that have devolved into arguments about what constitutes chord substitution, vs reharmonization) … I usually think of upper structure as being some structure that outlines the upper notes of a harmony. Superimposed being some different harmony doing the same work. That’s not standard I don’t think. But when I’m thinking about theory terms, I’m really only interested in terms that make a practical distinction.

So I don’t know why I would care to have another term for a triad that gives me a G9 vs a triad that gives me G13b9 just because one is diatonic to the major scale or key or whatever and the other isn’t. I’d use both in a lot of situations depending on the color I want.

If there’s a G7 going to C and I decide to use an F to Fm to C … or maybe F to F#dim to C … or maybe CdimMaj or whatever … those would be me sort of imposing my own harmonic landscape on the one that is written for me.

Then again, you can probably cram just about anything into the term upper structure. So who knows.

[Mick-7]

So many of these terms have a wide gray area in the middle (see the 1000 threads that have devolved into arguments about what constitutes chord substitution, vs reharmonization) … I usually think of upper structure as being some structure that outlines the upper notes of a harmony. Superimposed being some different harmony doing the same work. That’s not standard I don’t think. But when I’m thinking about theory terms, I’m really only interested in terms that make a practical distinction.

So maybe the term "upper structure" could be equated to "substitution," and "superimposed" equated to "reharmonization"? That would make sense.

[rpjazzguitar]

With no official, universally accepted definition of the term, endless debate can occur.

That said, I always thought that the word "upper" meant notes beyond the usual chord tones in one octave. Not that I had an opinion about whether the b9 in a 7b9 is "upper" or not. Maybe it's "upper" in relation to chords that only go up to the 7th.

So, all three 9ths, 11th, two 13ths constituted upper structure in my mind. But I got set in my ways before being exposed to the idea of an upper structure triad or chord.

Taking, say, Abmadd9 against G7 seems like a good example of upper structure to my way of thinking. But, it's Ab B Eb Bb which is b9, 3 b13 and #9. How did the 3rd elbow its way into "upper" structure?

Or should I be thinking about piano? The vanilla chord is outlined in the left hand and the upper structure is the non chord tones in the right hand?

Anyway, I don't claim to have a definition of "upper structure" but the idea seems to be to focus on useful notes that are not vanilla chord tones -- and maybe to think of those notes as triads or chords with their own usual names. Or something.

[Christian Miller]

With no official, universally accepted definition of the term, endless debate can occur.

That said, I always thought that the word "upper" meant notes beyond the usual chord tones in one octave. Not that I had an opinion about whether the b9 in a 7b9 is "upper" or not. Maybe it's "upper" in relation to chords that only go up to the 7th.

So, all three 9ths, 11th, two 13ths constituted upper structure in my mind. But I got set in my ways before being exposed to the idea of an upper structure triad or chord.

Taking, say, Abmadd9 against G7 seems like a good example of upper structure to my way of thinking. But, it's Ab B Eb Bb which is b9, 3 b13 and #9. How did the 3rd elbow its way into "upper" structure?

Or should I be thinking about piano? The vanilla chord is outlined in the left hand and the upper structure is the non chord tones in the right hand?

Anyway, I don't claim to have a definition of "upper structure" but the idea seems to be to focus on useful notes that are not vanilla chord tones -- and maybe to think of those notes as triads or chords with their own usual names. Or something.

Oh yeah but you made the mistake of choosing an altered scale example and the altered scale is a hot mess when it comes to spelling.

If you construct the altered scale as a mode of the melodic minor in 3rds like the other ones you end up with this, a weird extended m7b5

1 b3 b5 b7 b9 b11 b13

Which of course is how no one spells it. If you spell it the way people normally do

1 3 b5 b7 b9 #9 b13

You may notice that the chord is no longer built out of thirds. It also doesn’t follow the alphabet rule. For example:

G B Db F Ab A# Eb

If you append the -^7 chord to the lower structure you get this

1 3 b5 b7 b9 b11 (3) b13 1
Which works better but notice the repeated note. Also no #9.

In terms of using upper structure chords to give the sound of the altered scale it doesn’t matter too much. You can use the bII-^7 or whatever to get cool sounds and it’s all fine.

Anyway it works theoretically for all the other melodic minor modes. For example:

B Locrian #2
B D F A C# E G

So you see you have A or C#o or whatever available as an upper structure.

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[Christian Miller]

So maybe the term "upper structure" could be equated to "substitution," and "superimposed" equated to "reharmonization"? That would make sense.

I see these as all different, if overlapping, things

With upper structure I see this as being about evoking an extended colour over a given chord. So playing C^7#5 on D7 gives you a composite D13#11 sound for example.

A substitution may or may not have that effect. I might use a voice leading based sub like F F#o7 C on D-7 G7 C. I actually hear tritone subs as more voice leading based, but there’s some overlap.

A reharmonisation is changing the rhythm section chords of a tune under a melody. This might be something broadly compatible with the original changes or something much more radical.

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[wolflen]

Howard Roberts used the term upper structure meaning the 9 11 and 13 tones of a major scale as applied to the major 7 minor 7 and dominant 7 chords of a
specific key.

Now altering those chords with tones not in the key may be found in "altered" scales..

melodic minor
whole tone
diminished
augmented
and all the exotic sounds from other cultures- al la McLaughlin/Shakti
and other "synthetic" style scales

so.."altered upper structures"..?

Of course creating chords from the above mentioned scales or even combining them--and then "naming them" in a harmonic format so they may make sense..that is
a task for the most dedicated harmonic theory practitioner.

Re-harmonization my ass.

[rpjazzguitar]

Oh yeah but you made the mistake of choosing an altered scale example and the altered scale is a hot mess when it comes to spelling.
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I come at it partly from a different point of view.

I prefer to learn one sound at a time to more generalist approaches which can be overwhelming.

So, one alt sound can be obtained from Abmadd9 over G7. Another from Bbm triad and so forth. One at a time.

I'm willing to use the term upper structure to describe these things, but I don't insist on it.

That I'm misspelling something from some other point of view, well, nobody's perfect.

[JazzPadd]

Interesting question and thought-provoking responses. I find myself using a major triad with added sus4 in a variety of contexts. Besides liking the sound and how well it lays on the fretboard, moving it around can also provide various qualities of the upper extensions.

[Mick-7]

Howard Roberts used the term upper structure meaning the 9 11 and 13 tones of a major scale as applied to the major 7 minor 7 and dominant 7 chords of a specific key.

That was my understanding of the term. As you said, if you include every possible altered chord tone in that definition, it gets confusing, since note-wise, b3rd = #9th, b5th = #11th, #5th = b13th, etc.

[pamosmusic]

That was my understanding of the term. As you said, if you include every possible altered chord tone in that definition, it gets confusing, since note-wise, b3rd = #9th, b5th = #11th, #5th = b13th, etc.

And the consequences of this would be ....... ?

That some of the 0.002% of the general population will need a moment of clarification when speaking to you about the specifics of your harmonic conception?

I kid (sort of). But this isn't really even theory -- just a minor difference in the labels we're applying to the theory, so the potential confusion seems pretty minimal.

[rpjazzguitar]

Oh yeah but you made the mistake of choosing an altered scale example and the altered scale is a hot mess when it comes to spelling.

If you construct the altered scale as a mode of the melodic minor in 3rds like the other ones you end up with this, a weird extended m7b5

1 b3 b5 b7 b9 b11 b13

Which of course is how no one spells it. If you spell it the way people normally do

1 3 b5 b7 b9 #9 b13

You may notice that the chord is no longer built out of thirds. It also doesn’t follow the alphabet rule. For example:

G B Db F Ab A# Eb

If you append the -^7 chord to the lower structure you get this

1 3 b5 b7 b9 b11 (3) b13 1
Which works better but notice the repeated note. Also no #9.

In terms of using upper structure chords to give the sound of the altered scale it doesn’t matter too much. You can use the bII-^7 or whatever to get cool sounds and it’s all fine.

Anyway it works theoretically for all the other melodic minor modes. For example:

B Locrian #2
B D F A C# E G

So you see you have A or C#o or whatever available as an upper structure.

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I make no claims to being a theorist, but it seems to me I already got that from Levine's statement that all melodic minor chords are the same chord because there's no avoid note. And, they don't necessarily have to be built in thirds to work, IME. The challenge is to find the ones that work for you.

[Average Joe]

I'm sure I overuse the standard minor pentatonic half step down from a major chord move. e.g. Dm pent over Eb maj, for a lydian sound.

[Christian Miller]

I come at it partly from a different point of view.

I prefer to learn one sound at a time to more generalist approaches which can be overwhelming.

So, one alt sound can be obtained from Abmadd9 over G7. Another from Bbm triad and so forth. One at a time.

I'm willing to use the term upper structure to describe these things, but I don't insist on it.

That I'm misspelling something from some other point of view, well, nobody's perfect.

I don’t think you understood my meaning. You seemed confused over the thirds/upper structure thing.

The altered scale is theoretically awkward in that regard in a way the other melodic minor modes aren’t.

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[rpjazzguitar]

I don’t think you understood my meaning. You seemed confused over the thirds/upper structure thing.

The altered scale is theoretically awkward in that regard in a way the other melodic minor modes aren’t.

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I don't find the "theoretically awkward" in this case to be of practical interest. I don't see it as necessary to access the sounds.

[Christian Miller]

I don't find the "theoretically awkward" in this case to be of practical interest. I don't see it as necessary to access the sounds.

Maybe not - but the sounds also work a bit differently.

So for every melodic minor mode except the altered if you play the seventh of the melodic minor you get the characteristic sound of that scale

Dm - D melodic minor - C# (7)
D7 - A melodic minor note - G# (#11)
D-7b5 - F melodic minor note - E (nat9)
Dmaj7#5 - B melodic minor - A# (#5)
D13b9sus4 - C melodic minor - B (13)

All the cool notes

But it doesn't work with the Altered scale

D7alt - Eb melodic minor - D (root)
DEAD BORING

Altered is kind of its own thing. Just something I noticed.

Same with voicings. One of hip thing I can play on G7alt is a quartal stack on the b7. E.g. 3 x 3 3 4 4

If I use the same voicing on Db7, it just becomes a regular Db6/9 chord. Just a bit boring.