Looks like Jaco didn't improvise the Donna Lee solo?

[princeplanet]

..That seems weirdly defeatist - and while I don't claim to know anyone's thought processes, I can talk about what I hear in the music and how it makes sense to me, and I'm not sure that that would be totally different from how the performer conceived of their music.

I'm certainly comfortable in admitting to be mystified by rare genius, but far from being defeatist about it, on the contrary, i think it's inspiring. For sure annoying and frustrating too, but always and ultimately inspirational.

Jazz improvisation at the highest (transcendent?) level is, in my view, mankind's highest artistic achievement. What's not to be in awe of?

[Christian Miller]

Eh? I don't wish to make you feel silly. I just wondered who the people on here were who you were referring to who speak from a position of knowingness. I never claimed to have reached the same heights as the greats so I'm not sure where you got that from? All I did was make some general basic comments on the kinds of things Coltrane would use in his solos, particularly on things like 'Impressions'. Then you made some comments about how Trane and Bird's thought processes were totally unknowable, so why should anyone bother to try to analyse it? That seems weirdly defeatist - and while I don't claim to know anyone's thought processes, I can talk about what I hear in the music and how it makes sense to me, and I'm not sure that that would be totally different from how the performer conceived of their music.

There’s value in trying to get into someone’s mindset, inevitably getting a bit wrong and coming up with your own thing


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[James W]

Jazz improvisation at the highest (transcendent?) level is, in my view, mankind's highest artistic achievement. What's not to be in awe of?

Exactly. I'm so in awe of for example Trane's music, that it makes me want to transcribe it, read about it and obviously listen to it loads.

I see no contradiction between this and what I said previously on this thread?

[Mick-7]

Sounds pretty improvisational -

(2) Jaco Pastorius - Donna Lee - YouTube

Jaco Pastorius -"Donna Lee"

It helps if you have no chordal instruments there to get in the way.

[sully75]

Which is why I keep asking OP what Jaco did on Donna Lee live, after the album came out.

Uh, that's irrelevant. I never said that Jaco was a bad improviser or couldn't improvise. He's one of my favorite musicians. I said he largely played a canned, composed solo on his debut album. Which he did.

I'm not going to argue about things I'm not actually saying.

[sully75]

Sounds pretty improvisational -

I listened to these. There's cool stuff in both of them. I'm at work, it's a bit hard to hear the form with both solos. They are not in any way approaching the level of what he played on the album.

Later Jaco can be amazing, is often disappointing and seems to just depend on the date. Regardless, I was not suggesting Jaco wasn't a great improviser or a great anything. I said that the Donna Lee solo on his album was clearly worked out well in advance to recording it, which was surprising to me and a little disappointing. Which it obviously was and is (to me).

[charlieparker]

I think Adam Nealy did a video where Peter Erskine yelled at him for saying that Jaco didn't improvise the Donna Lee solo and Adam recanted, but it appears this recording is 2 years before the Jaco album came out and the solo is in large parts exactly the same. I'm not sure if everyone is as into this solo as I am. It's still amazing but it's maybe a bit disappointing.

There is a Wes Montgomery album called "Back Home in Indiana", I think, where he plays almost the exact same solos as on some his more well known recorded versions.

It seems like Wes worked out his solos to some degree.

Even Parker has some fairly long motifs, licks, riffs where you feel like he is playing the same thing as on another recording.

I've come around to the viewpoint that fetishizing pure improvisation is detrimental to good jazz playing. I'd rather here a canned solo that sounds great.

It seems like a lot of greats played canned stuff with slight variations. Eventually, if you develop a big enough set of sounds you can move away from that.

Even Corea has a video about this.

[Jonah]

There is a Wes Montgomery album called "Back Home in Indiana", I think, where he plays almost the exact same solos as on some his more well known recorded versions.

It seems like Wes worked out his solos to some degree.

Even Parker has some fairly long motifs, licks, riffs where you feel like he is playing the same thing as on another recording.

I've come around to the viewpoint that fetishizing pure improvisation is detrimental to good jazz playing. I'd rather here a canned solo that sounds great.

It seems like a lot of greats played canned stuff with slight variations. Eventually, if you develop a big enough set of sounds you can move away from that.

Even Corea has a video about this.

thanks for your input Charlie!

I wonder if Jaco is also on the forum

[lawson-stone]

It occurs to me that another alternative exists. Maybe the solo was improvised in the "pure" sense of the word, and afterwards, he liked it so much that he more or less locked it in and wanted to re-use it. I expect that is something that happens a lot. I'm a very "middling" player but one evening at an open jam session I played a solo on "Blue Moon" that was way over my head, and the pianist told me later it was one of the best solos on that tune he'd ever heard, and this guy was a veteran local player. Unfortunately, I have no recording, and couldn't recall what I did the next day... so my best moment in music was lost forever.

Some of these really great players have an almost photographic memory for what they played on a given tune on a given night. Joe Pass could do that. Maybe Jaco had a very inspired solo one night on Donna Lee and decided to lock it in and play it again.

[sully75]

It occurs to me that another alternative exists. Maybe the solo was improvised in the "pure" sense of the word, and afterwards, he liked it so much that he more or less locked it in and wanted to re-use it. I expect that is something that happens a lot. I'm a very "middling" player but one evening at an open jam session I played a solo on "Blue Moon" that was way over my head, and the pianist told me later it was one of the best solos on that tune he'd ever heard, and this guy was a veteran local player. Unfortunately, I have no recording, and couldn't recall what I did the next day... so my best moment in music was lost forever.

Some of these really great players have an almost photographic memory for what they played on a given tune on a given night. Joe Pass could do that. Maybe Jaco had a very inspired solo one night on Donna Lee and decided to lock it in and play it again.

Could be, but I don't think so. To me, when I was thinking that it was improvised, it was particularly impressive because it does sound so composed. There's a lot of crazy ideas in there, one right after the other, it's a pretty dense little solo. And listening to those other live solos, it doesn't approach that even slightly in terms of composition.

Jaco obviously could improvise amazing stuff in the studio, the recordings with Joni Mitchell in particular are amazingly inventive.

[lawson-stone]

Could be, but I don't think so. To me, when I was thinking that it was improvised, it was particularly impressive because it does sound so composed. There's a lot of crazy ideas in there, one right after the other, it's a pretty dense little solo. And listening to those other live solos, it doesn't approach that even slightly in terms of composition.

Jaco obviously could improvise amazing stuff in the studio, the recordings with Joni Mitchell in particular are amazingly inventive.

Likely, I was just trying to brainstorm some other possibility. Honestly, for Donna Lee, I can forgive the memorized or pre-mapped solo. I have crashed and burned on improvising over the changes so many times. You know you have failed utterly when your improvisation actually sounds more like "Back Home in Indiana"....

[sully75]

Likely, I was just trying to brainstorm some other possibility. Honestly, for Donna Lee, I can forgive the memorized or pre-mapped solo. I have crashed and burned on improvising over the changes so many times. You know you have failed utterly when your improvisation actually sounds more like "Back Home in Indiana"....

Yeah, sure. I'm not talking about what you or I are doing though. In general, my assumption remains that when "the greats" are playing, they are not playing a previous composition note for note. I know there are times when that's not true but I haven't heard too many actual examples (other than the Wes one above). I think Django might have composed some of his solos. But it's a bit of a different era as well.