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Hey there
Has anyone worked out of the Jerry Bergonzi Book I Melodic Shapes?
I've had this book forever and I've attempted to work out of it a few times. It is just SO FUCKING HARD for me. It's not like I can't play the guitar and I know exactly what is required but it is really hard for me to play these shapes accurately and at speed. I can do the 1 2 3 5 stuff pretty accurately but the 5 6 7 9 stuff...man. Just gives me a headache. I'm slow.
'Confirmation' with these patterns is so hard. If I can do 5 6 7 9 at quarter note=130, that's about my upper limit but I still make mistakes.
I am wondering if my brain is just not capable or maybe at some point it will click. Honestly I think it's silly this is book I. The Pentatonic book or the lines book might be a lot easier as a starting point.
I can see how it would be cool, at a certain point you could play any scale tone on any chord. I am just perturbed at how difficult it is for me.
Your thoughts? Anyone working on this? I also think it's probably way harder on guitar than on other instruments.
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07-13-2025 10:42 PM
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So, by 5 6 7 9, we're talking about a 1 2 3 5 pattern from the fifth of each chord?
So the same pattern and the issue is the mental connection not coming quick enough?
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Yeah but on minor chords it's 5 7 8 9. And the permutations on minor 7b5 chords or altered chords get kinda wacky. It is hard to visualize. b5 7 8 b9 on a minor 7b5 chord and then go to the altered dominant in a 1 bar ii V.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'd probably think of these more as ear training and brain exercises anyway. The goal isn't necessarily to shred through them in a solo. Originally Posted by sully75
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Thinking about things I've learned from jazz guitarists I have had some educational contact with, which may be apropos here:
Jimmy Bruno: "practice is repetition. Repeat it until you get it right."
Gene Bertoncini: "practice it until you can't play it wrong."
Stanley Jordan: "practice really, really slow. Correct any mistakes immediately so that they don't become confusing or habitual."
All of them emphasized practicing in time using a metronome. Practice it slow- really slow like 20 bpm, until it becomes easy to connect the patterns at that tempo and you can do it with your eyes closed in all 12 keys. Then 30 bpm, 40, 50, etc. Our brains need time to develop new cognitive and motor patterns, which usually means starting new learning simply and slowly. Aural-cognitive-visual-motor learning involves a lot of brain, building connections between different areas of the brain which means creating and reinforcing new neural pathways. You're not using the senses of smell or taste but you are using sight, sound, touch, consciousness, fine motor control, etc. Something like this is a large energy expenditure in your brain. It takes time to learn and then yet more time to become efficient.
A weakness of mine is that I find it frustrating to take it as slow as may really be needed. I think "man, I know all this other stuff, I should be able to incorporate this pretty easily." But it is often not that way. My notion of myself as a fairly advanced amateur jazz guitarist can get in the way of acquiring new knowledge.
I am reading Kenny Wheeler's book "Effortless Mastery" (recommended by Stanley) and just ran across this paragraph: “It is good to view things as familiar or unfamiliar, rather than as difficult or easy. If you give yourself the message, ”This is difficult,” the piece may discourage you, and it will still be difficult to play even after you’ve learned it. However, if you believe that all music is easy, then you’ll assume that you are unfamiliar with the piece because ”it hasn’t become easy yet.” From that viewpoint, the Bergonzi material isn't hard, it's unfamiliar.Last edited by Cunamara; 07-14-2025 at 02:14 AM.
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They had us use this book for our first semester at Uni. It was different to any other approach. I was told by one lecturer that if you stick with it, then you will have a complete system for playing chords and available tensions, and upper structures. Bergonzi is a permutation genius, he does it with his pentatonic book and melodic rhythms.
Everyone at uni gave up on this book after semester one and went the traditional route of scales and arpeggios and triads and rhythm and transcriptions.
Our sax teacher once said that he taught Jazz in South Africa. He had one student who was Zulu. He couldn't tech this student and tried everything over the course of a year or so and then in a last effort of frustration, he gave him the bergonzi book and that worked.
If you stick with it, it will work and you will be using a completely different approach that will give you your own style. I remember it is hard. and it takes daily commitment . For our first semester exams, we were given tunes and then the Lecturer would call out different permutations and we had to do them over the tunes. We didn't get to the upper structure stuff, most people had given up on it and gone a different route.
You should post a video so we can hear the sounds you are getting. It doesn't have to be fast just slow so we can hear those notes and permutations
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I remember a book called 'Melodic Structures', you had to know your scale intervals inside out. The book then used permutations of these scale intervals, then used these permutations over chord progressions. The process created a more modern sound, to my old ears at least.
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Maybe a good alternate approach, rather than thinking 5679 5789, train yourself to think the triad built on the 5th.
From there apply 1235 1345.
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While I have heard many times of Jerry Bergonzi as a legendary, even mythic figure in jazz education, having some of the greatest players in jazz as his students, I've never looked at any of his material.
As a result of this thread,I was twiddling around with the 1235 and 5679 patterns just now. As was pointed out above, the latter is the same intervals as the former, starting on the 5th. And in fact, if you play 5679 and then 1235 in position, you've played a V-I cadence. It outlines the chords really nicely. Play 5679 and then 1235, go down a whole step and play 5679 and then 1235, drop down a whole step and play 5679 and then 1235, and you are proceeding through the cycle of 4ths. I've worked on the 1235 pattern before but had never done the 5679 as such; I have to say, it makes a lot of sense to the ear- more than my previous experiments with the 1235 pattern. This is just the major chords, I have not gotten to the permutation for minor chords yet. There is a lot of juice to squeeze out of this idea, even just the little bits that have been described here.
The 1235 pattern, of course, is something Coltrane famously used in his solo on Giant Steps.
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For me melodic patterns were the missing link that joined scales and arps.
This study requires patients and determination..as others have said many gave up on this approach.
I started with a very basic 1 2 3 5 base but changed it - 2 3 1 5
So..now the discipline required is--you cant learn this if you think you already know it
Go SLOW..dont even use a metronome yet..this is going to be one note at a time for now
start in C major and all degrees in the scale
2 3 1 5 - D E C G
2 3 1 5 - E F D A
2 3 1 5 - F G E B --etc
In all octaves/positions..Ascending only for now
While this may seem easy you will see that it will require skill and a great deal of practice
To reinforce the study after you have a feel for it in all positions try the scale positions of I iii V vii then ii IV vi I
This is going to take some time to digest..your developing a new way to "HEAR" intervals
of course when you feel ready to advance..do this in ALL keys and positions
By doing this in all keys you cross over the major and minor intervals so the fingering mystery dissolves and you begin
to be able to change keys without getting lost..again this will take time.
After you get this under your fingers then add the metronome and then additional patterns-there are a couple of thousand of em
hope this helps
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I have most of Jerry's books; they are excellent, and yes, difficult!
I always recommend Vol. 6 for everyone- beginners on up! Check it out!
[Edit]
And be sure to watch Jerry's near-weekly studio live-stream! From last week:
https://www.youtube.com/live/ly9tNAy...jvzB&t=569Last edited by marcwhy; 07-14-2025 at 06:40 PM. Reason: vid
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I get that. The issue is basically on minor 7b5 chords when the "root" is actually the b5. And the pattern gets wacky, as a chord it would be root / M3 / #11 / 5 Originally Posted by bako
And on altered dominants it gets weird also, root / b9 / b3 /b5.
Although maybe that is a good way to think about it.
I'm thinking I will write out Confirmation on Ted Green style chord diagrams and see if that helps me visualize it. The problem is I know the shapes but still can't really flow them for very long. But I can see that if I could it would give me a lot of options.
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When I lived in Boston, I went to see Jerry play a weekly gig. I did this for over a decade. It was a master class in ear training, on the power of patience, on how NOT to think as a guitarist and how TO think like a musician.
To appreciate how easy it is for a horn player to negotiate any intervallic combination (no position shifting or figuring out grids on a sax, plus a much greater importance of training the ear to know the consequences of patterns and sequences), I got to internalize his melodic language before I ever opened up his books.
A few things that were useful for me, personally: attend live music as much as you can. Horn players can show you how to hear, juxtaposition, construct and creatively employ the fragments of melodic facility these combinations allow.
Jerry has a channel that lets anyone tune in for free each week for live studio performances. Easy immersion.
Jerry Bergonzi - YouTube
Practice those things slowly, and think ear training. Hear the musical potential.
Listen to players like Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter, Coltrane to acquire the phrasing context for them.
Don't make it a strict chops exercise; that limits their true musical value, but instead practice dovetailing them into longer more varied lines that assert linear texture.
Know that linear phrases become completely different beasts merely by finding different rhythmic patterns to play them over.
As weird or awkward as it may seem, don't neglect single line applications. Become fearless about shifting-into-out of-and within a four note combination. This is invaluable in freeing up a combination from cliche into the realm of seamless imagination.
Don't neglect dynamics. Those patterns have notes of different gravity. Bring it out.
Be patient and don't be held by the prejudices you have about why or how these are used. Just teach your fingers that embracing them is within easy mastery of your fingers; then use your ear and experience to make them into music.
You learn so much from starting with an open mind.
Good luck.
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Jimmy Blue Note post is very nuanced and ultimately far more relevant. My suggestion is to possibly help get over the thinking hump. For me building from superimposition of chords gets me there quicker than thinking individual scale intervals. Originally Posted by sully75
Cm7b5
(CDbEbFGbAbBb) Gb Ab Bb Db 1235 or Gb Bb C Db 13#45 chord in both instances is a Gb with an added note
(CDEbFGbAbBb) Gb Ab Bb D 123#5 or Gb Bb C D 13#4#5 a Gb+ with an added note.
C7alt
(CDbEbFb(E)GbAbBb) Gb Ab Bb Db 1235 or Gb Bb C Db 13#45 Gb with an added note
the funny thing about the altered scale is that you can build such structures from anywhere in the scale and all of the resulting structures yield a reasonable depiction of alteredness.
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Grok Harmonic Minor for this book. Best fingerings IMO are to play V7b9 "as if" iii chord in major with a raised 3rd.
Gmajor/Eminor: B7b9. Make all your D's D#.
But...
1. The upper extensions avoid the D# all together. So, they're technically easier to PLAY (simple would-be Lydian targeting patterns over the minor 2-5).
2. They're harder to see/hear as being the target chord of the moment.
- Personally, I'd work on these one position at a time, anchoring them to a specific unique m7b5 voicing for each position.
- It really helps to connect them. So, I'd play the reference position voicing before and after until they're mentally (fingers/ears/brain) connected.
3. To my ears, the upper patterns for major (including dominant) sound like diatonic analogs to the opening Out of Nowhere lick. They all end on that 9.
4. The minor 2-5's sound like the movie La La Land, although it's been forever. I may remember wrong.
5. Reg always talked about Lydian/Dorian for jazz pentatonics, and I think these are the 4-note version of that. Slightly modal sounds on the upper (5-6-7-9 etc).
As guitarists, we mostly don't know Harmonic Minor well enough. [I would stay away from trying to think of it as being an "alteration" of parallel major. Alter your relative minor fingerings, even if you think in terms of "major" (Gmaj fingerings with D#). Eventually, you'd see it both ways anyway...]
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I have not worked with the book, but took Jerry's lessons back in the eighties when he taught this stuff before the book was published. As someone mentioned, 5679 is like 1235 but from the fifth. You need to spend enough time to organize your view of the fingerboard, so that you start seeing the 5679 related to the 1235 shapes. This is a personal thing to do, it depends on how and on which areas you worked out the 1235. The same approach counts for the 1345 /5789 patterns. Of course much easier on piano than on guitar - Jerry used to play piano in the lessons ;-). Good luck! Originally Posted by sully75
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Hello all
Thanks for all your thoughts. After running at this brick wall episodically for years I'm looking to crush it. We will see. I have been putting in a lot of hours. I'm not even sure if it's what I need to be doing right now but it is such a brain crusher that it's probably not the worst thing.
I made a cheat sheet and did some updates today. I haven't proofread it or worked from it that much, so it might have errors.
Basically I did the most basic root position set in 4 inversions, and then a permutation starting on each note in all inversions. At the bottom are the shapes and in parenthesis are ways of seeing it as a chord on the first note.
Maybe someone will find this and find it useful. There's a lot of practicing in here.
Bergonzi-Book I - Google Docs
I'm just wondering, any particular solos that use the "Coltrane Patterns" other than giant steps? People other than Trane?
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The most important step is to work it logically onto the fingerboard in order to visualize ..... Originally Posted by sully75
As for other people's solos I guess Coltrane's sidemen are also good to listen to e.g. McCoy on But Not For Me
First 4 bars (repeated) II: Eb F#7 I B D7I G Bb7 I Eb ..... :II (the rest of the tune is more or less regular except some tag I F-7 I F-7 I A-7 I A-7 I C#-7 I C#-7 I A-7 I A-7 I and then a open II V III VI vamp.
And here something to make us guitarists work even harder ;-)
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Sully..
Originally Posted by bako 
Maybe a good alternate approach, rather than thinking 5679 5789, train yourself to think the triad built on the 5th.
From there apply 1235 1345.
I get that. The issue is basically on minor 7b5 chords when the "root" is actually the b5. And the pattern gets wacky, as a chord it would be root / M3 / #11 / 5
I think this may help you..As I Stated in a previous post..these patterns are going to be confusing to apply unless you see them as part of the scale they are coming from.
so lets take that pattern bako suggested 1 3 4 5 ..great..lets apply it to a chord that is giving you trouble mi7b5..and lets apply that chord to a key
well C major has a Bmi7b5 chord in it ..so B D E F...R ni3 4 b5.. now that you have a key reference for the chord the pattern has to use the notes within that key.
Let do Dmi7 In C major 1 3 4 5 D F G A // In Bb it is Dmi7 --D F Eb A
Now the patterns begin to have home and are not isolated..so the pattern will work on all the scale degrees of the scale
So they will now make sense in a ii7-V7 in Bb --Cmi7 C Eb F G -- F7 --F A Bb C--BbMaj7 Bb D Eb F--All using the 1 3 4 5 pattern.
Now all the patterns will adhere to the notes in the scale even altered chords if they are with a scale that supports the chord.
The melodic minor can be a good test to use.
Hope this helps
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Thanks for the help guys. I don't think the problem is really a theoretical one, mostly a guitar/mechanics one. I have had a hard time seeing the patterns on the fingerboard in the past and then moving them down a 5th or a tritone, they get a little idiosyncratic on the guitar...I'd have a much easier time visualizing them on the piano, particularly when the B and E string are involved.
That said, I'm getting significantly better with a lot of practice. Confirmation seems to be a great tune to practice on as there is no break from the changes.
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Yes, visualizing is THE keyword here ..... much more complicated on guitar than eg. on piano or sax ...... Originally Posted by sully75
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this instrument is poorly designed! I want a refund! Originally Posted by JazzNote
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The patterns come from scales and chord arpeggios so if you have a methodical approach to fingering them (i.e., scales and arpeggios), these patterns will be much less of a challenge for you. The fact that you're having trouble with them suggests to me that you have not developed a systematic fingering approach.
"I don't want to go among mad people!" Alice said. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cheshire Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." Originally Posted by sully75
I've shared this before:
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It is so great to find something you want to do but struggle. Means you will really learn something new. Barring working with a pro instructor, I suggest taking it slow, writing it out in whatever method you can read, do this over a few chords, then bars, then sections, then try to apply to a tune without writing out, play at a slower tempo than you would perform at (50-75% of marked tempo). In most cases, anything you can play in time at a moderate tempo and with high accuracy, it will not take long to do so at tempo. Originally Posted by sully75
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Just checking in, I've been working hard on this the last couple of weeks. It's still frustrating in that I don't have much speed but I'm slowly integrating the patterns. I think this method is really profoundly un-guitarish, which is cool for me. It's really making me think about intervals and patterns and parts of the fretboard that were pretty hazy to me. It sort of reminds me of the Improviser's OS book, just in that some of the patterns of the inversions are pretty far from something that would easily fit a CAGED shape or something like that so I'm having to dig in to what the actual notes are.
I started drawing out patterns on Ted Greene style chord charts and that has helped a TON. I wish I'd done that before. I didn't think it would help as much as it did. Lesson learned, a lot of time wasted before I did that.
Anyway, thank you for the suggestions. At some point I'll post a run through. I'm working on Confirmation only with this method right now.
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