Practical yet thorough way of understanding the fretboard?

[jazznylon]

What would be your idea of mastering the fretboard in a practical sense? I play 10 string so this question seems silly but yeah. Personally the way I went about it recently is just to improvise the major scale on each individual strings and then positions, then whole fretboard. 2 minutes each, so it would take me about 40 minutes to go through 1 Key. Having done 12 keys already I feel like I wasted my time (joking ). Anyways where to go from here? Theres modes but I'm kind of iffy about them. Its the same pattern but the relationships and sounds are different. I'm tempted to just think about the parent scale (major) in relation to them and move on with different parent scales (melodic and harmonic minor). Just the thought of going through all the modes in 12 keys for each parent scale sounds like overkill to me (especially on my 10 string)

[ragman1]

Play tunes. Find the notes, understand what's going on. Use many different keys. You'll soon figure out the fretboard, can't help it.

There's not much point, imo, in 'studying the fretboard' in an academic fashion because you'll still have to apply it to playing tunes later. So why not save time and energy and do it all at one go?

[James W]

Play tunes. Find the notes, understand what's going on. Use many different keys. You'll soon figure out the fretboard, can't help it.

There's not much point, imo, in 'studying the fretboard' in an academic fashion because you'll still have to apply it to playing tunes later. So why not save time and energy and do it all at one go?

I second this. Learn tunes alongside learning the scales. Compose choruses over said tunes and also practice perpetual eighth note scale and arpeggio type exercises over them.

[BreckerFan]

I have no idea how to approach this on a 10 string, as I don't know how it's tuned. But for 6 string:

-learn scale positions. 3 nps and caged. Practice both of them until you realize they're the same thing seen from a different lense. More importantly, think about the interval patterns of the parent scale you're working on (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished, etc) and learn to see that overarching pattern in the scale positions. Practice connecting the positions while being conscious of the interval patterns.
-also practice scales in one octave shapes. These are just smaller pieces of the larger patterns, but they're much more convenient to use on the fly than thinking in terms of the whole shape.
-learn triads. Small 3 note patterns on all string sets as well as all possible ways of playing 2 octave triads in position (on a 6 string, you can do this by cycling through the circle of 4ths in a 5 fret position). Try to see these shapes in the scale positions shapes, both caged and 3 nps.
-practice intervals. Learn all the different ways to play the same interval. Practice scales in intervals. Trying using an online interval ear trainer and replicating whatever random interval it gives you on the neck.

This is a lot of material, but the goal is that you eventually see that you're practicing the same thing in various ways. Rather than picking a system that prescribes how to understand the fretboard, you should see the systems as simply describing what's happening on the fretboard.

[Mick-7]

What would be your idea of mastering the fretboard in a practical sense? I play 10 string so this question seems silly but yeah. Personally the way I went about it recently is just to improvise the major scale on each individual strings and then positions, then whole fretboard. 2 minutes each, so it would take me about 40 minutes to go through 1 Key. Having done 12 keys already I feel like I wasted my time (joking ). Anyways where to go from here? There's modes but I'm kind of iffy about them. Its the same pattern but the relationships and sounds are different. I'm tempted to just think about the parent scale (major) in relation to them and move on with different parent scales (melodic and harmonic minor). Just the thought of going through all the modes in 12 keys for each parent scale sounds like overkill to me (especially on my 10 string)

Practical steps? First one would be to ditch the 10 string guitar. (I may not be kidding).

This comment I just posted in another thread is relevant, there is only one note difference between the major scale and all the other scales we commonly use in jazz (except whole tone and diminished), so once you know your major scales, it can be simple to learn the others.

The Barry Harris scale for ii V in Minor

Personally, I don't think practicing in all 12 keys is necessary, 6 keys (every other key) will do it, since all the note relationships and positions will be the same, but 1 fret away.

[jazznylon]

For reference my 10 string is tuned in G#0 'Standard' so G# C# F# B E A D G B E, so all 4ths except for that G-B major third. I use 7 positions since I'm not sure 5 positions translate well to 10 string. The patterns are consistent and obvious since its mostly 4ths its just the G-B string pair I gotta watch out for when improvising.

Tunes with scales sounds like the plan then.

[pingu]

memorising scale shapes doesn’t
work for me …. too many notes I think

what worked for me was learning
the Arpeggios

the CAGED arpeggio shapes all over the board in one key …. thoroughly

[GuyBoden]

First one would be to ditch the 10 string guitar. (I may not be kidding).

Yes, I've played a 10 string tuned in 4ths, you can play across in each position, but the fretboard width was too wide, even for my very large hands.

So, I agree with Mick's recommendation, "ditch the 10 string guitar". Don't waste anymore time on it.

[Mick-7]

memorising scale shapes doesn’t
work for me …. too many notes I think

what worked for me was learning
the Arpeggios

the CAGED arpeggio shapes all over the board in one key …. thoroughly

Yeah well, just 2 chords doth a scale make, for example, C major = C^7 + Dm or C + Dm6, etc.

But it's not about memorizing scale shapes but about training your fingers and ears to find and hear the notes.

[AllanAllen]

After drilling the major scale, then running it with thirds, triads and seventh chord arpeggios through the scale. Along with diatonic chord grips and inversions.

After that what helped was focusing on reading music, and playing gigs without lead sheets. That helped me find the notes by name, all the scale stuff trained my ear to hear if it was right.

Maybe learn some theory too. If you know the major scale you already know the modes. I personally think modes are over rated, sure you can use Dorian over So What, but embellishing the minor pentatonic scale works too.

[wolflen]

So the question asked was..do you know the names of all the notes on the fretboard?

and then the more important question..do you WANT to know them?

So it was the seven positions approach and then the three and four note triads and their arpeggios and playing the entire scale from
each starting note of the scale..ascending and descending..and yeah in 12 keys

then write it all and read it..no looking at the fretboard..OK..what note are you playing..play a maj chord arpeggio from that note

now play the arps..skipping every other degree so 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 up and down..all keys

and after two years..I could read and play in 12 keys

When I teach someone this method I stress..the WANT to learn.

and yes Im sure there are other ways to absorb and retain this stuff..perhaps much faster and easier..but this is what worked for me

[bako]

Ted Dunbar at NYC Jazzmobile workshops in the 70's was important music mentor to me and he put a great deal of emphasis on fretboard knowledge. Some of the parameters of his teaching included:

Playing all keys within 5 frets
Ability to starting on any finger and play the same content
Spontaneously creating different routes between starting and end points.

10 strings present some particularly interesting parameters for this question though.
If I was coming from where I am as a 6 string player moving into 10 strings, I think I would divide the instrument into string segments, playing across all 10 feels like too much information for me to absorb at once. Perhaps I would work with groups of either 6 of even 4 strings at a time and gradually combine them in different groupings. I would of course need to gain a sense to know at what distance between the string groups is it viable to combine simultaneous sounds. Your tuning leads me to wonder about the scale length of your strings in order to achieve a reasonable sound on your lowest tuned strings.

First goal for me would be to consolidate and learn to navigate everything I presently know about music within this new challenging environment. I took up playing jazz on cello after years of playing gigs on guitar and bass guitar and the integration of my present musical knowledge to my new environment was my first priority.

Beyond that, this forum has had many, many discussions of folks expressing individual opinions on priorities of skill and knowledge categories to help progress as a jazz/improvising musician. You probably have your own opinions on that as well.
That in my opinion is a different area of growth than that of gaining comfort sonically, mentally and physically to comfortably navigate your 10 string guitar.

[jazznylon]

I was hesitant to tune that way on a classical ten string until I came across the Aquila Bionylon Low-E Tuning set strings. For my lowest string I was still able to discern the pitches and it sounds like a double bass. I plan to replace my c# f# and probably low B with more of them since I was using the savarez high tension to get by (too much flop city).

Its pretty fun to improvise on it, I get addicted playing 3rds throughout the entire position though playing higher intervals remain a challenge. Arpeggios still need some work too

[Jonah]

I came through the process of learning fretboard in a new tuning on baroque lute. Somehow it was quite a challenge for me... maybe because of the tuning nuances, maybe because I did being much older than i did it with guitar.
I also tried to achieve maximum transparency (not just learn to sigh-read).

One of the things I practiced specifically is limited frets. Like playing melodies, scales chords only above 7th fret, or only btw 5th and 10th etc.

As for 10 strings guitar... baroque lute has 13 courses, but down from 7th they are tuned scale-wise. Nevertheless fretting 7-9 courses is not uncommon (though only 7 and 8 are more or less ok to fret physically if the instrument is made properly).
So I had to incorporate these into the chord interval patterns.

My opinion that maximum 8 strings can be covered effectively with fretting on guitar, others are just open.
And in this case how you tune is the main question.


Another thing I noticed - even with 8 strings it is a lot visually, and when you get more - it looks just like a huge 'zebra' -crossed with frets (especially when there are no fret marks like on lutes)...


Though normally I do not look at the strings when I play, I noticed that if I drop occasional look there it can create a momentary confusion.

So I used to mark some bass strings with small red or blue dots as harpists do, and also I did it at a certain fret area so it also gave information about the fret/note

Hope it helps a bit

[jazznylon]

Thanks. I used the Guitar Fretboard app to help get me started trying to visualize the positions while improvising. After a few keys I didn't have to rely on it anymore and just go by ear/memory.

Then again maybe I should stick with 6 strings. Less of a headache and I could use the 5 positions to my advantage

[AllanAllen]

Can't you just expand the 5 positions over your extra strings? At the end of the day, 10 strings is just a bigger shape for each of the positions.

[jazznylon]

Its doable though I found one position has a 6 fret span with two backwards shifts (without stretching). Not sure if thats a big deal but the 6 string version of 5 positions definitedly looks friendlier

[AllanAllen]

Its doable though I found one position has a 6 fret span with two backwards shifts (without stretching). Not sure if thats a big deal but the 6 string version of 5 positions definitedly looks friendlier

Are you trying to stick to 3nps or something? Caged uses a few 2 note per string to keep thinks tight. Maybe you even need a single note string to keep things in 5 frets with your alternate tuning.

If you’re going to go outside the box, you have to be outside the box.

[emanresu]

Maybe use some random generator that tells a scale/mode..
Climb up, stop, keep your finger on the spot, next random scale, climb down etc.
Just a fun exercise.

Btw. I did one app that lets you customize all sorts of things in a fretboard diagram.
Fingerboard mapper 2000 ULTRA Turbo plus
A bit clunky and unintuitive though.

[Tal_175]

To me it doesn't make sense to learn the fretboard without having specific goals. Different goals require different mindsets. The goal could be reading music, making solo guitar arrangements and compositions, playing the changes, improvising counterpoint etc. The approach would be different if the goal is to do everything than if the goal is more specific.

[BreckerFan]

I agree with Allan, if you're tuning in 4ths you should be able to extend caged shapes within a 5 fret area. In fact, maybe the best way for you to practice would be to try and play major scales in all 12 keys within a 5 fret area.

This is why I was saying its important not to see the caged or 3nps shapes as "the scales". The fundamental makeup of a scale is a pattern of intervals (major is ws, ws, hs, ws, ws, ws). There are a ton of ways to play that interval pattern across the neck, and the common scale shapes are just convenient maps to do that in specific areas of the neck. But all these shapes fit together to form one network across the entire fretboard. Its important that no matter what shape you're practicing you can see it within the bigger network.

So play 3 nps and caged and see how they relate. Find one octave shapes within those shapes. Play 4 nps and see how they relate to the other shapes. Play scales on a single string, etc etc.

[jazznylon]

Are you trying to stick to 3nps or something? Caged uses a few 2 note per string to keep thinks tight. Maybe you even need a single note string to keep things in 5 frets with your alternate tuning.

If you’re going to go outside the box, you have to be outside the box.

I was attempting the 5 positions on 10 string. I thought the point of the caged was to have no stretches. It seems that due to having a bunch of 4ths the layout makes stretching unavoidable at least within a 5 fret area.

[BreckerFan]

I was attempting the 5 positions on 10 string. I thought the point of the caged was to have no stretches. It seems that due to having a bunch of 4ths the layout makes stretching unavoidable at least within a 5 fret area.

No, if you're tuned in 4ths there is no need to stretch beyond 5 frets, because a unison on strings tuned in 4ths is only 6 frets apart. Whenever you reach a bigger stretch or position shift, you can instead play that note on the next string.

This will result in a random combination of 2 and 3 nps, and also with scale shapes that don't always have the root on the low string.

[AllanAllen]

I don't know what your process is so forgive me if you've done this, but...

Get a piece of paper and write 10 lines across and then 5 lines down and map out a major scale in one position making it fit into 5 frets. BreckerFan thinks you'll have a mix of 2nps and 3nps. I believe you want to play within 4 frets on a single string, but you can shift in one position.

If it was my project, I would work it out on paper, then apply it to the fret board. One position at a time.

Post a picture of the diagrams too, this is interesting.

[GuyBoden]

I'd like to see a pic of the 10 string guitar.