Part II, Mike Brecker/McCoy Tyner Quartatonic scale (4 note) based on Bb & Eb (4th) t

[jzucker]

Part II, Mike Brecker/McCoy Tyner Quartatonic scale (4 note) based on Bb & Eb (4th) triads


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Part II,


This is a cool concept that is similar to triad pairs but instead of triads, uses 4th chord pairs. In this case, I'm
taking two 4th chords, Bb,Eb,Ab and Eb, Db, Ab. These sound cool over a variety of chords but I was hearing them
over G7Alt for the purposes of this exercise. When you combine these two chords, you end up with a quadratonic
scale Ab Bb Db Eb which gives you b9, #9, b5, #5, all of the alt tones.

#jazzguitar #McCoyTyner #MikeBrecker #modernjazzguitar #daquisto #steveholst #holstguitars #archtopguitars #clevelandjazz

[Mick-7]

For mnemonic purposes, I just think of this as Db6/9 (minus its 3rd, 'F,' which is the 7th of G7), which is a b5 sub for G7(alt) - as you said, it provides b5th, #5th, b9th & #9th.

[rpjazzguitar]

Nice sound. I'm not sure what is the most efficient way to think of it. Probably depends on how you think about chords/scales and notes.

If you know your chord tones and the 5ths and 9ths in every key, it's easy enough.

If you think about Galt you get 7 notes. The four alterations and a G, B, D and F. Subtract the G7 from the Galt to get only the alterations.

A pattern based thinker would do it differently.

[jzucker]

Nice sound. I'm not sure what is the most efficient way to think of it. Probably depends on how you think about chords/scales and notes.

If you know your chord tones and the 5ths and 9ths in every key, it's easy enough.

If you think about Galt you get 7 notes. The four alterations and a G, B, D and F. Subtract the G7 from the Galt to get only the alterations.

A pattern based thinker would do it differently.

Right but that's just this ONE isolated example. That'd be like looking at the E/G polychord and saying, "oh, it's just a 13b9 chord". Which is true but then you start taking Ab/G, A/G, Bb/G, B/G, etc...and it opens up new worlds.

And the same is true of stacking 4th triads. This one is Bb/Eb but try stacking the other 4th chords and you end up with a lot of different sounds that aren't just the b9, #9, #4, #5

[Mick-7]

If you know your chord tones and the 5ths and 9ths in every key, it's easy enough.

Yes, when one knows and can hear the altered chord tones, all of these theoretical concepts become academic. But until then....

[pamosmusic]

Yes, when one knows and can hear the altered chord tones, all of these theoretical concepts become academic. But until then....

Mick I don’t mean to be rude here, but I’m skeptical of someone who speaks this way.

I guess the first thing is that the number of people who can really hear advanced harmonies like that is pretty small, relative even to the number of people on a forum like this who play this kind of music. The number of people who can hear lines using these harmonies is certainly much smaller. Hearing those things in real time would be smaller still.

And I also am a little skeptical because I do know people who hear that well (I don’t really think I’m one of them) who still have enormous use for these sorts of naming conventions and the stackable relationships and that sort of thing — not to say they’re theory heads or whatever, but they’re always thinking about the way one sound can be smuggled inside another. There are exceptions of course, but there is tons of utility in this stuff and a good ear can always get better.

For example — hearing a chord played in one go, stacked in thirds can sound quite a bit different than hearing it played with an inverted upper structure in the right hand. Suddenly your ear hears both the whole and the strongly defined part and sort of balks. I can only imagine the same would be true of an upper structure in fourths being different than an upper structure in thirds. Honestly I wouldn’t know because my ear isn’t that good.

When I hear someone say that “all of this is irrelevant when your ear is killer” I hear someone saying that “all this phonetics stuff is irrelevant when you’re a real poet.” It sounds quite a bit dismissive. People who are interested enough in these sounds to hear them really well are generally voracious when it comes to new ways to categorize and access them. People who are not interested in ways to access these sounds … well … fill in the blank, I guess.

[Mick-7]

When I hear someone say that “all of this is irrelevant when your ear is killer” ....

I wasn't suggesting that theoretical knowledge becomes irrelevant, just much less relevant once you know and hear how to apply it, which may take a long time - depending upon how much effort you devote to it, etc. And I did add, "but until then..."

[pamosmusic]

I wasn't suggesting that theoretical knowledge becomes irrelevant, just much less relevant once you know and hear how to apply it, which may take a long time - depending upon how much effort you devote to it, etc. And I did add, "but until then..."

sounds nice

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd say that, once it sinks in, you don't need to think about it. How you get to that point is different for different players. There are great players who think about theory and great players who don't, at least not in terms of verbal analysis.

[jzucker]

you guys are missing the point though. The bigger point is 4th triads pairs.

[pamosmusic]

you guys are missing the point though. The bigger point is 4th triads pairs.

Sorry, that's part of what I meant. Just because you can "hear an altered chord" (or whatever chord it is) doesn't mean you can hear quartal lines or different upper structures. So these other ways of accessing the sounds you can already hear are extremely useful for developing vocabulary.

[jzucker]

Sorry, that's part of what I meant. Just because you can "hear an altered chord" (or whatever chord it is) doesn't mean you can hear quartal lines or different upper structures. So these other ways of accessing the sounds you can already hear are extremely useful for developing vocabulary.

Right! The point isn't learning that particular riff or learning to analyze it a particular way. It's just another way of deriving vocabulary.