Bird breaking the “rules”

[Christian Miller]

This video inspired by a conversation with Cliff re this lick

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[bediles]

Nice vid! Enjoyable as always. I see that particular lick as a dim sub (easier to think E7) to Am or F/A. Classic language kinda thing on Rhythm Changes or the like. JP on Rosetta is one that comes to mind in the 1st chorus and every RC solo.

Any other unashamed 'wrong note' examples up your sleeve? They are always fun to rationalize or even just say well, sounds good so whatevs.

[Christian Miller]

Nice vid! Enjoyable as always. I see that particular lick as a dim sub (easier to think E7) to Am or F/A. Classic language kinda thing on Rhythm Changes or the like. JP on Rosetta is one that comes to mind in the 1st chorus and every RC solo.

Any other unashamed 'wrong note' examples up your sleeve? They are always fun to rationalize or even just say well, sounds good so whatevs.

That is something that occurred to me but I didn’t include in the vid for some reason… the notes in the last bar could as easily be from an Am triad.

The main one that pops into my head is the common use of a major/mixolydian dominant in a minor key. Quite a few players do this.


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[ragman1]

Excellent.

For what it's worth, Coltrane used this too in the Patterns book. I suppose, technically, it starts on the last note (B) of the Dm bar.


I was just thinking that, say we had the usual F - F#o - C/G, I suppose we could see the C/G as an Em and therefore the B7 as the V of that. I don't know if that makes sense.

[pauln]

C7 to Fmaj7
C7 perspectives:
Gb LydianDom7
E dim7 WH
E aug7
E WT

[Christian Miller]

Excellent.

For what it's worth, Coltrane used this too in the Patterns book. I suppose, technically, it starts on the last note (B) of the Dm bar.


I was just thinking that, say we had the usual F - F#o - C/G, I suppose we could see the C/G as an Em and therefore the B7 as the V of that. I don't know if that makes sense.

Good catch!


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[Christian Miller]

Oh a video I reference in the video which is related:

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[pamosmusic]

Excellent.

For what it's worth, Coltrane used this too in the Patterns book. I suppose, technically, it starts on the last note (B) of the Dm bar.


I was just thinking that, say we had the usual F - F#o - C/G, I suppose we could see the C/G as an Em and therefore the B7 as the V of that. I don't know if that makes sense.

Which book is this from?

[Mick-7]

Excellent.

For what it's worth, Coltrane used this too in the Patterns book. I suppose, technically, it starts on the last note (B) of the Dm bar.


I was just thinking that, say we had the usual F - F#o - C/G, I suppose we could see the C/G as an Em and therefore the B7 as the V of that. I don't know if that makes sense.

I'd call the Abm7 arpeggio a b5 sub for the Dm7 chord, or maybe Db over G7.

[ragman1]

Which book is this from?

(PDF) John Coltrane Patterns compiled by Eric Dannewitz | Diego Daza - Academia.edu

[setemupjoe]

From my experience lines like the one in Christian’s video are using Bb6 - B°7- F6/C as a melodic substitution over Gmi7- C7 - Fma7.

Rhythm changes use this movement in bar 6 to get us from the IVma back to the Ima. The alternative version is the IVma - IVmi - Ima. Both of these can be used to play over the IImi-V7-Ima.

I always assumed the diminished variation to sound a little more old-timey than the IVma-IVmi version. Of course that version then morphed into the more modern IVma-bVII13-Ima.

The fun part is realizing all these variations can be played over a traditional II-V-I to create new pathways and ideas.

[pamosmusic]

(PDF) John Coltrane Patterns compiled by Eric Dannewitz | Diego Daza - Academia.edu

Sick.

Thank you kindly.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting thing is here and in the comments of my videos I’ve got about three or four ‘creation myths’ further to the ones I outlined in the video. They all work and are all valid.


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[Christian Miller]

From my experience lines like the one in Christian’s video are using Bb6 - B°7- F6/C as a melodic substitution over Gmi7- C7 - Fma7.

Rhythm changes use this movement in bar 6 to get us from the IVma back to the Ima. The alternative version is the IVma - IVmi - Ima. Both of these can be used to play over the IImi-V7-Ima.

I always assumed the diminished variation to sound a little more old-timey than the IVma-IVmi version. Of course that version then morphed into the more modern IVma-bVII13-Ima.

The fun part is realizing all these variations can be played over a traditional II-V-I to create new pathways and ideas.

I did mention this in the last section of the video if you didn’t get all the way through it.

The IV for II V I sub is something I break down in this video, though I don’t know if covered the #IVo7 - I’d have to rewatch it.

I do know it’s a thumbnail triumph.

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[GuyBoden]

Nice video, but too complex for my abilities.

I can only theoretically understand simple Charlie Parker Phrases that fit into my limited knowledge.

Example analysis of the popular Billies Bounce phrase below in F Major:

5th to 1st.
Chromatic ascent from 2nd to 5th.
Enclosure around the 4th. Using 5th to 3rd to 4th.
4th to 5th to 4th to 3rd turnaround.
3rd to 1st to 6th (Dmin triad descending)
Ends on the 5th.

Let me know if I'm wrong again.

[setemupjoe]

I did mention this in the last section of the video if you didn’t get all the way through it.

The IV for II V I sub is something I break down in this video, though I don’t know if covered the #IVo7 - I’d have to rewatch it.

I do know it’s a thumbnail triumph.

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Yes, you absolutely mentioned it, but you rolled it in with your discussion of using the subdominant chord borrowed from the Tritone. I love that device as well and it’s a very cool concept for playing lines. I don’t however, think they’re talking about the same thing. They sort of run concurrently, each device producing the major 7th note on a dom7th chord, which as you correctly state, we’ve all been told is a big no-no.

And your latest thumbnail is terrifying. That guy could get a role in Whiplash.

[Christian Miller]

Nice video, but too complex for my abilities.

I can only theoretically understand simple Charlie Parker Phrases that fit into my limited knowledge.

Example analysis of the popular Billies Bounce phrase below in F Major:

5th to 1st.
Chromatic ascent from 2nd to 5th.
Enclosure around the 4th. Using 5th to 3rd to 4th.
4th to 5th to 4th to 3rd turnaround.
3rd to 1st to 6th (Dmin triad descending)
Ends on the 5th.

Let me know if I'm wrong again.

Yer plays yer F triad on yer F
Yer plays yer Gm triad on yer Gm
Yer plays yer E triad on yer C7

Simple. As.

Everything after that in the video is a justification and therefore unnecessary… well the tritone stuff is quite cool. But I needed an 8minute plus video for monetisation purposes.

If I was a real YouTube pro I’d have built up to that simple thing in the last minute and strung you along with some circuitous anecdote. YouTube and its perverse incentives.


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[joe2758]

I do know it’s a thumbnail triumph.

It took a minute, but here you are. 11/10

[Christian Miller]

And your latest thumbnail is terrifying. That guy could get a role in Whiplash.

He’s above the law


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[Bobby Timmons]

I'm a fan of these (systematic) deviations from cst, I think they sound great.

My view is I need some of the basic harmonic form outlined, I think winging it only sounds bad; but that I need some of this chromatic stuff too, I think vanilla only sounds bad.

[Bobby Timmons]

Most of the time Charlie Parker is obviously not playing simple chord tones on the downbeats.

Very true. He outlines the chords more eloquently than that.

[pamosmusic]

Most of the time Charlie Parker is obviously not playing simple chord tones on the downbeats.

Below is a very simple Charlie Parker phrase, very difficult for me to transcribe from the records at the very fast tempos, but luckily it's all in the Charlie Parker Omnibook.
Attachment 118973

Not to be annoying, but aren’t there chord tones from the base triad on every downbeat of the first measure?

If the second measure happens to be a IV chord then it’s true of that one too.

[GuyBoden]

Not to be annoying, but aren’t there chord tones from the base triad on every downbeat of the first measure?

If the second measure happens to be a IV chord then it’s true of that one too.

Yes.

Edit: Yes, it should have been F7 and Bb7. (Au Privave, Swedish Schnapps, 1956?)

Edit: Updated notation, sorry, it was supposed to be a joke about Charlie Parker not playing Chordtones on the Downbeats, when evidence shows otherwise. I should know better than to try jokes on the internet, when I'm too tired.

Charlie Parker phrase from Au Privave, Swedish Schnapps, 1956?

[Christian Miller]

I’m sure Hans Groiner could tidy that up


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[CliffR]

I've been spending more time with this solo (one of my favourites) and found a simpler but related interesting idea (which I think you also mentioned in the video, Christian). Earlier on Bird plays an arpeggio from the 3rd over the F7 but, rather than use the Eb, he plays the E. It's a double-time lick, so maybe there's more room for malarky here, but I find that playing it with the Eb instead just sounds *wrong*.