Ways to Play a Scale

[AllanAllen]

I don't think Django practiced scales, I'm not totally sure he knew what a scale was abstractly. I know a lot of the modern OG Gypsy guys wouldn't really understand why you'd work on them.

Not particularly relevant to someone who wants to work on them, I'm not Django and plenty of people who are great practiced scales.

Hard to say what Django knew and didn’t know formally. I got the impression Gypsy types weren’t too keen on educating outsiders and all we have are written interviews without the context expression.

Like, we all know Wes didn’t throw raw meat into his guitar case. Right?

How do we know Django didn’t lie that he couldn’t read just like the Ellington orchestra did? Or was that the Basie Orchestra? (My source on this is Ken Burns Jazz)

Or maybe he liked fooling everyone into thinking he was an idiot savant.

[pamosmusic]

How do we know Django didn’t lie that he couldn’t read just like the Ellington orchestra did? Or was that the Basie Orchestra? (My source on this is Ken Burns Jazz)

James Reese Europe.

"If a fly landed on that music, they'd read it." (or something)

Famously didn't always go over well, because white audiences preferred to think of them as unschooled.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I learned and practiced scales a lot when I was a novice musician, as most people do, but at some point they became muscle memory so there was no point in continuing to practice them in any sort of formal way. But even when you reach the point where scales are second nature to you, you are still kind of practicing them when you run lines through chord progressions. However, your focus changes, you begin thinking in smaller note sets and combinations - that was my experience anyway.

Well I think the point of this thread is that "scales" don't become muscle memory, exactly, because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways. So you can get a lot more technical, aural, musical dexterity by practicing at least some of those arrangements deliberately.

[Mick-7]

Well I think the point of this thread is that "scales" don't become muscle memory, exactly, because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways. So you can get a lot more technical, aural, musical dexterity by practicing at least some of those arrangements deliberately.

Well, call it what you will, if you can instantly play a particular set of notes, say a major scale, without having to think about it, it has become subliminal.

"because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways."

That's really only true of a 12 tone scale, you could save yourself time and only practice it.

[pamosmusic]

Well, call it what you will, if you can instantly play a particular set of notes, say a major scale, without having to think about it, it has become subliminal.

"because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways."

That's really only true of a 12 tone scale, you could save yourself time and only practice it.

yawn

[Strat-itis]

What's "universal applications"?

I'm working on a cheat sheet, let me know what you think:
Scale Method - Google Docs

That's good. I like to divide it into rhythms and melodic shapes. And within that, the comprehensive list of rhythms and shapes, opposed to the practical list to focus on essential for your playing.

Rhythms

half note, half note triplet, quarter notes, quarter note triplet, 8th note, 8th note triplet, 16th note, 16th note triplet, 32nd notes.

Do you need to run through this list every day? No. If the slower ones are giving you trouble, then work them up, if not you can skip them and focus on others. 8th notes can give people trouble depending on their level, but others have them down. Like I said, I can play 8th notes fine in regular playing, so I focus on 8th note triplets and 16th notes, since I view those as essential for my playing but I don't have them great so far. And I have 16th note triplets and 32nd notes on the back burner and do some work.

Shapes

I view melodic shape as the subheadings of: scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics. Same as rhythms, you have the comprehensive list and then the practical list. You want your basic scales and arps down, then you can work on expanding from that. Some intervals are nice to have down, though you don't need to be able to rip through 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, octaves, and 9ths (although that would sound cool).

Pivots and shells would file under arps.

Chromatics I group as ornamentation devices for one note: neighbor tone, approach, enclosure, run through etc.

Neighbor tone - half or whole step away from main note, usually half step.
Approach - 2+ chromatics into main note.
Enclosure - different types. Main type is scale tone above, half step below, main note.
Run through - main note, scale tone above, half step below, main note.

Again, disclaimer: that first outline was the Barry Harris single note outline as taught by Chris Parks. Some people like to stick strictly to the BH system for accuracy, and some people adapt it to their goals, either is fine. If you're looking to adapt your own routine, you don't have to list it like Barry, I think the organization I laid out works best.

[AllanAllen]

James Reese Europe.

"If a fly landed on that music, they'd read it." (or something)

Famously didn't always go over well, because white audiences preferred to think of them as unschooled.

I thought that’s why they memorized the charts, to trick the whites. Or not offend them or whatever. To navigate the racist world. The white audience are the bad guys here. I just want to be clear on that.

[Strat-itis]

I don't think Charlie Parker and the other beboppers spent much time practicing scales - except of course when they were beginners learning their instrument. Art Pepper said that most musicians he knew did not and he would know first hand (he performed with my college jazz band).

Well, call it what you will, if you can instantly play a particular set of notes, say a major scale, without having to think about it, it has become subliminal.

"because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways."

That's really only true of a 12 tone scale, you could save yourself time and only practice it.

You're incorrect Mick. You don't get the extreme organization the beboppers had by just hearing everything up from an idea of knowing what a scale is. They practiced scales and worked them out. I think Barry would know more than you would. He practiced scales for 80 years or so and taught how to systematically work melodic material from them.

Scale are fine to practice but I think many years ago I spent too much time with them and should have covered chords and arps. To get to the point the best practice is an actual tune the melody, chords, arps as you move through the tune. Scale are there and it ok to know them but boppers were not playing scales as such.

You're incorrect. People who say this have some motive to revise history.

What the others say is correct:

Well I think the point of this thread is that "scales" don't become muscle memory, exactly, because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways. So you can get a lot more technical, aural, musical dexterity by practicing at least some of those arrangements deliberately.

Right, correct reply to Mick. Scales aren't just run up and down. They provide the initial organization of possible notes and you have to further shape them from there. It isn't just a run scale or hear everything up false dichotomy.

Yeah I don’t think generalizations are terribly useful here. Horn players in general almost certainly spent considerable time on scales … Bird loved Bach and played clarinet etudes from what I remember. Miles is the poster child for “Play what you feel, man” and at some point he had a Juilliard audition sufficiently together to be accepted there. Clifford Brown practiced Clark and Arban religiously.

There are two strangely common misconceptions about practicing scales:

- One practices scales because they want to be a able play scales up and down. Practicing scales is about practicing melodic and harmonic material that come from scales. That includes arpeggios, intervals, melodic cells as well as playing up and down. Scales provide a organization to practice these structures in tonal units as well as in terms of instrumental layouts.

- Masters never played scales: Most great improvisors of any era actually played scales. It would be very difficult for example to find an entire solo of Wes Montgomery where he didn't play and ascending or descending strict scalar line at least 7 notes long. It's part of almost everybody's vocabulary.

Correct on both counts. As if practicing scales automatically only teaches you them up and down, and not any organization. That's like saying if you read the dictionary it's the only use of learning new vocabulary.

Yes. Most great improvisers of any era played scales. It's evidenced in their playing and sometimes in their testimony.

That's what I thought until I started transcribing Bird. He may or may not have practiced them but he certainly played them.

Lots of scales and scale fragments in there. Bebop seems like it has to do with scales. Barry certainly thought so.

Random bit of Bird

Attachment 127321

Yep. Scales and other theory is evidenced in Parker's playing. Parker is also on tape saying he learned his organization from books. Desmond asked Parker where he got his 'technique', meaning how does he shred so hard. Parker said from the books, meaning he studied theory and organizational concepts and practiced them to be able to play the way he does.

Parker was big on playing the Klose exercises. There is a recording of him tearing through one.

Yep. They reference that in the interview.

[Mick-7]

yawn

Seriously, taking a two octave range on the fingerboard and practicing particular intervals in a 12 tone scale (i.e., with no set tonal center) is a very good technical exercise and ear training. I got the idea from Dave Creamer, but he could improvise 12 tone rows on the fly, I never took it that far. This sort of thing -- 12-Tone Patterns

[pamosmusic]

I thought that’s why they memorized the charts, to trick the whites. Or not offend them or whatever. To navigate the racist world. The white audience are the bad guys here. I just want to be clear on that.

Yeah that’s James Reese Europe.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think Django practiced scales, I'm not totally sure he knew what a scale was abstractly. I know a lot of the modern OG Gypsy guys wouldn't really understand why you'd work on them.

Not particularly relevant to someone who wants to work on them, I'm not Django and plenty of people who are great practiced scales.

It's a funny one. Obviously Django's music is full of scales. An obvious example is the middle 8 of Douce Ambiance, which has two ascending Dorian modes in it, in Ab and A.



It's not really possible to imagine Western music without scalar material in it.

We enter the realm of philosophy a bit? I've talked about the way music theory is always a simplification of real music through various means. Labelling a melodic line as coming from a scale is an example. Many effective jazz lines are parented by the Dorian mode, but not all combinations of the Dorian mode make effective jazz lines. Information is always omitted through this type of abstraction, so analysis is always in a sense destructive.

As an outward observer who has a theory background, it does seem to make sense to call those two runs in the bridge of Douce Ambiance Dorian modes, because they are clearly stepwise scales containing the Dorian notes. It makes sense to label those as such even though I don't think any jazz musicians were using that terminology at the time, least of all Django. And I expect Denis Chang would come after me if I did haha.

Of course, no-one teaches modal theory in the GJ world. It's all ear learning, licks/vocab, grips and chord tones - which I think is great, manifestly produces legitimate sounding players in a fairly short amount of time, and probably what a lot of jazz guitar students generally could do with more of (most GOOD players have done this type of thing at some point, although maybe not with Django.) You can argue that a lot of the GJ players are kind of licky, and not everyone necessarily wants to end up there, but I see it as a solid step into being able to participate in the community. At least enough to be told off by the elders for sounding too much like Wes or whatever (which is what happened to Pat Metheny and Bruce Forman) and embark on the next stages.

But it's not just GJ, although that's where you are most likely to encounter non theory based players today. Holger (djg), who is usually correct on this stuff, tells me that Blue Mitchell was very much an ear player. Here are his first few bars of his solo on Nica's Dream. Textbook use of melodic minor scales on the Bb min(maj)7 chords, which is interesting because Junior Cook does not treat the chords this way, and neither does Wes in his live version (he plays Dorian on these chords)


So yeah. There's scales there. Presumably practicing of scale went on or they wouldn't have come out in the soloing. Whether or not Blue or Django called these things scales, or anything at all, I have no idea. But it seems silly not to say 'Blue Mitchell plays the melodic minor' because that is clearly what he is doing, and most jazz musicians today will understand what that means.

OTOH knowing that he plays the melodic minor does not tell you everything about those phrases, which can only really be internalised aurally. These simple stepwise scalar lines sound awesome, and most jazz workshop beginners playing the same scales obviously do not. Notice how he plays these things in forward motion for instance, at the rhythmic articulation and clarity of them on record. Theory and analysis of pitch choice are really small parts of this ...

[Christian Miller]

Well I think the point of this thread is that "scales" don't become muscle memory, exactly, because they're just a bunch of notes that can be arranged in a practically infinite number of ways. So you can get a lot more technical, aural, musical dexterity by practicing at least some of those arrangements deliberately.

It depends where you are heading with this. I think there's a central confusion about scales in jazz improvisation, that comes in both from people who are 'anti'-CST and those who are 'pro'-CST (t stereotype these positions a bit, sorry.)

Classic jazz - including a lot of the 60s post bop stuff - has much more of players going up and down scales (like they tell you not to) then it does people rearranging chord scales in an infinite number of ways. That's a post 70s thing really. Trane, Joe Henderson, they play a lot of scales up and down.

Now you can Ben Monder it up and do your prog jazz with all that intervallic permutation stuff and it can sound cool and modern - but it's clearly not what yer Meat'n'Potatoes jazz language is about.

IMO chord scale theory should be called "coloristic pitch set theory", but I don't think that would have caught on as much lol. Really it's nothing to do with scales, because scales represent only one ordering of the pitch set and is used purely for teaching and analysis purposes. Chord scale theory is about voicings really - it's a vertical theory of 'good sounding notes' that blend together and create beautiful colours. Hence the often misunderstood concept of 'avoid notes.'

On the other hand scales are often used dynamically and horizontally in Western music. The major scale has drama built in for instance - the dissonant fourth wanting to resolve to the third. The major seventh wanting to resolve to the octave. Jazz subverts some of these expectations - the seventh can be used as a colour note obviously - but scales like harmonic minor are used not because of their euphony with the chord of the moment, but instead because of their in built dynamic tension, which CST would call 'avoid notes'.

The same is true of the Barry Harris 8 note scales. They are about movement. CST is about stasis - which is of course why CST is so connected with the post-functional jazz of Herbie, Wayne Shorter et al (although Wayne was not as far as I can tell a CST guy.)

[Christian Miller]

On a level of basic attitude, the question for sully75 to ask is IMO -

Am I trying to deepen my understanding of an existing musical idiom, or am I messing around with resources to see what I can come up with?

In the former case the emphasis always has to be on listening, or being instructed on what sounds 'in the style' (as Barry did). There are to some extent right and wrong ways to do music here, which is demanding in some ways and comforting in others.

In the latter, there's really no road map. The good thing is that are no clear right and wrong ways to do this, so there's a lot of freedom. The bad thing is that there are no clear right and wring ways to do it, so it's easy to get lost and overwhelmed by the sheer number of options. It's hard to advise someone on their own personal rabbit hole, other than to say it can take a lot of time to explore a simple concept thoroughly.

[pamosmusic]

It depends where you are heading with this. I think there's a central confusion about scales in jazz improvisation, that comes in both from people who are 'anti'-CST and those who are 'pro'-CST (t stereotype these positions a bit, sorry.)

Classic jazz - including a lot of the 60s post bop stuff - has much more of players going up and down scales (like they tell you not to) then it does people rearranging chord scales in an infinite number of ways. That's a post 70s thing really. Trane, Joe Henderson, they play a lot of scales up and down.

Now you can Ben Monder it up and do your prog jazz with all that intervallic permutation stuff and it can sound cool and modern - but it's clearly not what yer Meat'n'Potatoes jazz language is about.

IMO chord scale theory should be called "coloristic pitch set theory", but I don't think that would have caught on as much lol. Really it's nothing to do with scales, because scales represent only one ordering of the pitch set and is used purely for teaching and analysis purposes. Chord scale theory is about voicings really - it's a vertical theory of 'good sounding notes' that blend together and create beautiful colours. Hence the often misunderstood concept of 'avoid notes.'

On the other hand scales are often used dynamically and horizontally in Western music. The major scale has drama built in for instance - the dissonant fourth wanting to resolve to the third. The major seventh wanting to resolve to the octave. Jazz subverts some of these expectations - the seventh can be used as a colour note obviously - but scales like harmonic minor are used not because of their euphony with the chord of the moment, but instead because of their in built dynamic tension, which CST would call 'avoid notes'.

The same is true of the Barry Harris 8 note scales. They are about movement. CST is about stasis - which is of course why CST is so connected with the post-functional jazz of Herbie, Wayne Shorter et al (although Wayne was not as far as I can tell a CST guy.)

Well hold up … I didn’t say the whole “no one just plays scales straight up and down” thing.

Actually wasn’t really commenting at all on what’s played in the literature. Just the musicianship aspect.

[Tal_175]

I think a big blind spot for guitarists regarding the nature of the instrument is regarding what is diatonic and how the diatonic key is used when the chords have chromatic alterations from the basic key (which is basically a given for all GASB songs)

So for instance, if I am a piano player playing Sunny Side of the Street which is usually played in C, I can see graphically immediately that the second chord, E7, contains a black note, G#.

Then I get to the third chord, Fmaj7, and we can see we are all on the white notes once more. (Obviously for other keys, the pianist would be bearing in mind the key signature.)

When it comes to filling in the gaps between chord tones, we can very simply use these basic key notes, and land on whatever chord tones are in the chords. So in the second chord, E7, we simply play the C scale/white notes down from the E to G# for instance, and we have the sound of the chord in the scale, without having to do much brain work.

This relates to the way Barry Harris taught for instance, but it's really a Western Classical approach to playing changes if you like. And a lot of jazz is actually like this. It's sort of the default way to do it.

This is one reason I think everyone serious about out jazz improvisation needs to spend time at a piano keyboard. It makes more sense.

On the guitar, it's hard to see. I think guitarists tend to build scales on chords (as I do), so we think of each chord taking its own (often rather fancy) scale. But the diatonic background to the whole thing gets lost, especially if you start with chord scales. We would say the E7 takes 'E Phrygian dominant' - and it's the same pitches, but a totally different way of arriving at that conclusion involving a whole new scale construction. And a rather clunky one, to my mind.

I should do a video on this.

I have a piano. It's not more obvious to me on the piano how to turn Amin7 to A7 with one chromatic leading note (C#) in the key of C when I am going to E min than on guitar. In fact, if I am playing in the key of Db major (obviously pianist don't only use the key of C), it's far easier for me to fill in with the notes chromatic to the key (Ab to A for example) on guitar than on piano. Of course I can practice more piano an get better at visualizing other keys but that's just getting better at piano, not guitar.

I think for a beginning jazz guitarist, working things out on the piano can be helpful. You are right, jazz guitar education tends to neglect the diatonic arpeggios in favor of scale per chord approach perhaps. That's one of the reasons Barry Harris considers playing diatonic triads and arpeggios "ABC's". One of the ways I work on major scale is to play arpeggios in cycles like, 1-4-7-3-6-2-5-1. I turn each into secondary dominants before going to the next chord. Yes,that's less work on the piano if you are limiting yourself to C major but I think, ultimately one shouldn't have to refer to another instrument to be able to play their instrument and there are ways guitarists can get better at it. Horns are different of course. They have no way of playing homophonic texture on their instruments.

[joe2758]

Every phrase comes from a scale whether the player knows it or not, unless someone is clueless or goes to great lengths to intentionally avoid it. And in the latter case, the majority of people would not consider it musical.

[joe2758]

I have a piano. It's not more obvious to me on the piano how to turn Amin7 to A7 with one chromatic leading note (C#) in the key of C when I am going to E min than on guitar. In fact, if I am playing in the key of Db major (obviously pianist don't only use the key of C), it's far easier for me to fill in with the notes chromatic to the key (Ab to A for example) on guitar than on piano. Of course I can practice more piano an get better at visualizing other keys but that's just getting better at piano, not guitar.

I think for a beginning jazz guitarist, working things out on the piano can be helpful. You are right, jazz guitar education tends to neglect the diatonic arpeggios in favor of scale per chord approach perhaps. That's one of the reasons Barry Harris considers playing diatonic triads and arpeggios "ABC's". One of the ways I work on major scale is to play arpeggios in cycles like, 1-4-7-3-6-2-5-1. I turn each into secondary dominants before going to the next chord. Yes,that's less work on the piano if you are limiting yourself to C major but I think, ultimately one shouldn't have to refer to another instrument to be able to play their instrument and there are ways guitarists can get better at it. Horns are different of course. They have no way of playing homophonic texture on their instruments.

Do you think working things out on paper can have a similar effect? I sort of do

[Tal_175]

As I said, almost every great improvisor does the up and down scale thing in jazz. That's just part of the vocabulary. But that's not the only thing scale practice involves.

[James W]

Every phrase comes from a scale whether the player knows it or not, unless someone is clueless or goes to great lengths to intentionally avoid it. And in the latter case, the majority of people would not consider it musical.

No 'great lengths' are needed just a bit of imagination. I consider myself to be in the minority of people who find some such music... musical.

[Tal_175]

Do you think working things out on paper can have a similar effect? I sort of do

Yes, I also definitely benefit from working things out in the abstract and visualizing them on the fretboard.

[Christian Miller]

Do you think working things out on paper can have a similar effect? I sort of do

I think so. Music notation is very similar. But if you play the piano you get the aural feedback which I think is important. If you hear music from notation that’s less critical.


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[Christian Miller]

As I said, almost every great improvisor does the up and down scale thing in jazz. That's just part of the vocabulary. But that's not the only thing scale practice involves.

Straight ahead jazz is mostly that and tertial stuff - chords, triads, thirds etc. So if you want to play that music, that will affect your practice goals.


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[joe2758]

No 'great lengths' are needed just a bit of imagination. I consider myself to be in the minority of people who find some such music... musical.

Hmm good point.

[sully75]

This would have been an interesting discussion if I asked "should I practice scales".

My question was, I'm working on a scale regimen for myself and trying to put together a little cheat sheet of ways to practice them, any thoughts on that?

I don't get everyone chiming in on their thoughts, a lot of which are pretty bizarre, about whether or not scales are valuable to practice. I'm not trying to be rude, but I honestly don't give a shit what you think my goals should be or if you think I'm wasting my time or whatever. It's not relevant, it's not my question.

I have heard it confirmed many times by many people who are very close to the gypsy community in Europe that a large percentage of really excellent gypsy players are bordering on total musical illiteracy in the western sense. As in not knowing the names of the notes on the strings. It doesn't stop them from playing beautiful and sophisticated music.

I also know that many players, particularly modern players who I admire, have scale practice routines. Adam Rogers in particular got me thinking about it. It's something I'm going to work on. I got some valuable advice here but wading through a ton of responses of people saying how they think scales are a waste of time, I suggest you don't play scales. It is a free country.

[joe2758]

This would have been an interesting discussion if I asked "should I practice scales".

My question was, I'm working on a scale regimen for myself and trying to put together a little cheat sheet of ways to practice them, any thoughts on that?

I don't get everyone chiming in on their thoughts, a lot of which are pretty bizarre, about whether or not scales are valuable to practice. I'm not trying to be rude, but I honestly don't give a shit what you think my goals should be or if you think I'm wasting my time or whatever. It's not relevant, it's not my question.

I have heard it confirmed many times by many people who are very close to the gypsy community in Europe that a large percentage of really excellent gypsy players are bordering on total musical illiteracy in the western sense. As in not knowing the names of the notes on the strings. It doesn't stop them from playing beautiful and sophisticated music.

I also know that many players, particularly modern players who I admire, have scale practice routines. Adam Rogers in particular got me thinking about it. It's something I'm going to work on. I got some valuable advice here but wading through a ton of responses of people saying how they think scales are a waste of time, I suggest you don't play scales. It is a free country.

Sounds like you already have it figured out