Ways to Play a Scale

[joe2758]

I won't argue, but I will say I don't think I've seen you ever be this hypocritical. You literally said the the pinky shift is fine because it was said first and everyone else is superfluous because they were late to the party. And you can't be bothered to bore yourself with this conversation because your nose is in a book. And you read 3 pages of it.

It was really only the "try actually playing your guitar" comment that is pretty$%^&*

[pamosmusic]

Bro, is Allan the dweeb now?

[joe2758]

yeah hope you dont fog your glasses reading your book, poindexter lol (jk)

[AllanAllen]

I'm flattered you ever thought I wasn't a dweeb.

[AllanAllen]

I won't argue, but I will say I don't think I've seen you ever be this hypocritical. You literally said the the pinky shift is fine because it was said first and everyone else is superfluous because they were late to the party. And you can't be bothered to bore yourself with this conversation because your nose is in a book. And you read 3 pages of it.

It was really only the "try actually playing your guitar" comment that is pretty$%^&*

I tried to explain my thinking, I can't help the way I am.

[PMB]

I know I'm 3 pages behind here, but I played those pinky shift scales and they weren't hard. Get your guitar out sometime and play the stuff you argue about for 3 pages. This philosophical optimization is the real dweeb stuff.

PMB, there was a Johnny Smith book without his final say, but it's out of print and not the one I linked. He was involved with all the materials his name is on, but the editor made changes he didn't like on the first book. Lore has turned it into something else.

Thanks for the reminder. The book I was thinking about is Aids to Technique for Guitar.

[Mick-7]

Correction: Upon further study of the book I dissed earlier, i.e., Mel Bay's Complete Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar, I see that it does suggest how he shifts from one of his three positions to the next: he makes the shifts only on the B string or top E string.

If he's shifting up a whole step, he'll shift with the index finger, and if it's more than a whole step, he'll do it as below (I've notated his fingerings). This would jive with what he said in the interview and with his chord melody approach. The shift illustrated below would take you from his first to second major scale form positions.

[sully75]

I spent 30 minutes fucking around with 4 note scales this morning with different fingerings, it was like, very nice and pleasant. I hadn't really given them much thought but they are very natural feeling, kind of like the Segovia scales but I think maybe teach the guitar better.

I was trying going through the keys but starting on the lowest note of the scale on the E string and playing roughly 13 frets up the high E string. It's not easy to keep the keys straight but it's very nice.

What I SHOULD have done though is argue about pinky shifts.

[starjasmine]

About the thumb gliding over top;

Sor left his thumb in place like a pianist pivots on their thumb.

So if I played A-C on fret 1 and 2, I might slide up to play D-F on the same strings and same fingers without moving my thumb

I am confused by this. where is A on fret 1? and C on fret 2? Do I need to use dweeb tuning for this? ;-)

Not giving you a hard time (well, a little!) I've played many Sor studies and my jazz fretting hand is classical-correct unless something in the music (thumb over the top chord or string bend) requires otherwise.

I'm asking because I want to "definitely try it."

@mick and christian: the pinky is not the strongest finger, yes, but it doesn't make me avoid pinky shifts. I can see where Peter's first finger approach to the G ma scale shifts works, too. I'm all for having multiple ways to play something, so I can choose what works best for the music.

[Mick-7]

@mick and christian: the pinky is not the strongest finger, yes, but it doesn't make me avoid pinky shifts. I can see where Peter's first finger approach to the G ma scale shifts works, too. I'm all for having multiple ways to play something, so I can choose what works best for the music.

From my brief time studying with a virtuoso, i.e., Dave Creamer, I learned that the efficiency and consistency of one's fingerings will make the difference between success or failure in one's ability to play stuff like this -- Dave Creamer Exercises

[AllanAllen]

I like how aggressive the thread got.

[Christian Miller]

Bro, is Allan the dweeb now?

I got bad news for all of us…


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[starjasmine]

the efficiency and consistency of one's fingerings will make the difference between success or failure

Knowing more than one way to do something is not necessarily inefficient or inconsistent.

[Christian Miller]

More interesting context from Jon (who posts on JGO sometimes.)

Players practiced scales, but didn’t use them as a basis for improvisation…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Knowing more than one way to do something is not necessarily inefficient or inconsistent.

Yeah super important for a beginner to have one consistent way to build muscle memory.

As you get into those intermediate stages where you’re more capable of exploring, I think kind of intentionally scrambling all the usual pathways is really beneficial.

Kind of The Advancing Guitarist model.

[Tal_175]

I find combining the following to build lines to be very effective. They can work for any of the chords within a scale. So I usually have a chord from the scale in mind when I practice building lines with them.

What:
- Triads, arpeggios.
- Intervals. All including 6ths and 7ths.
- Partial sequences 123, 1234 ...
- Triad plus one. 1235 and 1345.

How:
- Starting from every note.
- Ascending and descending.
- One up-one down and one down-one up.
- Inversions.
- Pivot.
- Chromatics: Half approach, passing notes, enclosures.
- Rhythmic variation. Start from different parts of the beat. Use triplets. Alternate 8th notes and quarters within a line.

When you work like this with a scale, you are working on all seven chords and chord-scales (oh scary) that come from the scale at the same time but you can make any one chord the context throughout a session.

[PMB]

Yeah super important for a beginner to have one consistent way to build muscle memory.

As you get into those intermediate stages where you’re more capable of exploring, I think kind of intentionally scrambling all the usual pathways is really beneficial.

Kind of The Advancing Guitarist model.

Too much information at an early stage can be overwhelming. A lot of amateur players land here looking for simple solutions after trawling online through a barrage of conflicting opinions and approaches (and sometimes leave immediately after being bombarded with more of the same!).

[AllanAllen]

Too much information at an early stage can be overwhelming. A lot of amateur players land here looking for simple solutions after trawling online through a barrage of conflicting opinions and approaches (and sometimes leave immediately after being bombarded with more of the same!).

I remember being so frustrated by the replies when I was, let’s say, more green.

[pauln]

Could someone clarify what is pinky shifting?

[Mick-7]

Could someone clarify what is pinky shifting?

Just shifting up or down a fret (a semi-tone) with the pinky rather than, say, the 3rd finger.

[pauln]

Just shifting up or down a fret (a semi-tone) with the pinky rather than, say, the 3rd finger.

I'm thinking the hand is the object of shifts, the fingers shift with the hand, but the fingers may also stretch beyond the nominal position. Stretches are done to sound pitches beyond the nominal position.

Hand shifts are done when subsequent pitches are beyond what stretching can reach and may include moving a sounding finger to a subsequent location (so a shift) to sound a subsequent pitch, but the sounding finger may also just pass the sounding to a different finger after the shift.

So are we talking about the pinky first stretching from a hand position to sound a pitch above that position, establishing the pinky's place in the new shifted up position?
Or just talking about a generic hand shift to a new position to allow the pinky to reach a pitch's fret without stretching?

[pauln]

Despite one of the more introspective folks here regarding technique and mechanics I can't make sense of this thread yet regarding the words "shift", "stretch", and "slide"...

My guesses...
shift - whole hand position and thumb moves?
stretch - first and fourth fingers move and thumb stays relative to position?
slide - some combination of fingers and thumb move (except not either)?

Slide and shift are both being used with identification to a finger to describe something (pinky shift, slides with the index or third)- the language so far does not distinguish the mechanics or what's going on. How is slide different from shift? Do slides involve sounded pitches and shifts not?

It must be possible to make clear which represent a change in hand position, which indicate a relative finger movement with respect to a position, and which include the sounding of pitches vs just changing location in advance of subsequent pitches.

[Mick-7]

Despite one of the more introspective folks here regarding technique and mechanics I can't make sense of this thread yet regarding the words "shift", "stretch", and "slide"... Do slides involve sounded pitches and shifts not?

The thread is so long that I'm reluctant to go back and try to decipher it, but I presume the terms shift and slide are being used interchangeably - you know what a slide is, pressing down on a string, sounding the note and then sliding up or down a fret to sound the next note. I was going to say that slide = slur but I think they are technically somewhat different. A stretch would be as you described earlier: stretching or widening the fingers of the hand to reach a note.

[AllanAllen]

I think shift and slide mean the same thing. You’re silently transitioning fingering positions.

A slur would be an audible transition.

[Mick-7]

I think shift and slide mean the same thing. You’re silently transitioning fingering positions.

A slur would be an audible transition.

As you suggested, a shift is moving from one position to another without sounding a note.

Slurs and slides are similar but the difference is this: a slur is picking a note and then sliding to another note - without picking the second note.

A slide is picking a note and then sliding up or down through a series of notes, i.e., multiple notes vs a single note note like the slur, and the final note in the series may be picked or not, if it's not picked, it's called a "legato slide."

Here's an essay on slides: Slides Part 1 | StudyBass