Ways to Play a Scale

[joe2758]

'Mirror' fingerings are probably the closest thing to what you're describing:

Attachment 127655

I think scales should be diagonal and use shifts like this. But, I would consider using the weakest finger every time on a whole step to be a poor solution. Possibly the worst actually

[joe2758]

Shifting positions a whole step up with the pinky is ridiculously inefficient.

beat me to it haha

[Christian Miller]

Shifting positions a whole step up with the pinky is ridiculously inefficient.

Yeah stuff that

[sully75]

I confess that I don't understand the value of thinking about scales in this way.

But, how will working on such things improve your playing? I'm not saying they won't, I'm seriously asking how.

Having practiced scales too much over the years, my fingers find them while excluding my brain from helping construct a solo. It would have been better, or so I now think, to have practiced making melody within tonal centers. Meaning, use the same notes, but make music from the start.

As far as reading goes, I have a firmer opinion. Thinking about scales is of little value. I think it's much better to learn to read the old fashioned way, and play everything in at least two octaves. Then, you know the neck. You see the notes on the chart and you figure out how to play them. You pick a position that works for the bulk of it and then you problem-solve how to deal with notes that are harder to reach. Could be stretches, position shifts, flattening a finger or whatever. But, unless the chart has you playing a scale, knowing a scale doesn't help much if you know the fretboard.

Not sure if I've expressed the sentiment enough but I could not give less of a s*** what anyone thinks of anyone else who is interested in playing scales.

Here's a hint on how you can tell if someone is looking for your thoughts on playing scales, it would sound like this: "do you think I should play scales?" or "do you think it's valuable to work on scales?"

In this situation it would sound like "hey do you think playing in a diagonal position up and down the neck would be helpful in sight reading?"

It's just so f****** boring to ask a simple question and have a gangbang of negativity about something that is totally inconsequential.

[PMB]

I confess that I don't understand the value of thinking about scales in this way.

But, how will working on such things improve your playing? I'm not saying they won't, I'm seriously asking how.

Having practiced scales too much over the years, my fingers find them while excluding my brain from helping construct a solo. It would have been better, or so I now think, to have practiced making melody within tonal centers. Meaning, use the same notes, but make music from the start.

As far as reading goes, I have a firmer opinion. Thinking about scales is of little value. I think it's much better to learn to read the old fashioned way, and play everything in at least two octaves. Then, you know the neck. You see the notes on the chart and you figure out how to play them. You pick a position that works for the bulk of it and then you problem-solve how to deal with notes that are harder to reach. Could be stretches, position shifts, flattening a finger or whatever. But, unless the chart has you playing a scale, knowing a scale doesn't help much if you know the fretboard.

Are we talking about playing or sight-reading? 'Mirror' fingerings are just one of the possible ways to negotiate reading. In my opinion, the more scale forms we learn (up and down single strings, CAGED, Berklee extended fingerings, 3 or 4 notes per string) the more choice we have both for reading and performing. We shouldn't be 'thinking' about them. They should be learnt until they 'dissolve' and can be automatically recalled - in other words, we learn to forget.

Regarding your last statement, much of what we read is diatonic in nature. A typical jazz standard remains in one key. Doesn't it make sense to see an underlying scale form when reading through one of these? Otherwise, we're treating each note as an isolated event rather than part of a line that's derived from the reservoir of available scale tones. Granted, it may not always be the most idiomatic solution, especially when trying to bring out phrasing (slurs, chromatic slides etc.) but it will at least provide a useful background to get the job done in real time.

[joe2758]

Not sure if I've expressed the sentiment enough but I could not give less of a s*** what anyone thinks of anyone else who is interested in playing scales.

Here's a hint on how you can tell if someone is looking for your thoughts on playing scales, it would sound like this: "do you think I should play scales?" or "do you think it's valuable to work on scales?"

In this situation it would sound like "hey do you think playing in a diagonal position up and down the neck would be helpful in sight reading?"

It's just so f****** boring to ask a simple question and have a gangbang of negativity about something that is totally inconsequential.

Man...chill...he literally answered your question. It was "no"

[sully75]

Man...chill...he literally answered your question. It was "no"

My question:
"I was interested in how they seemed to be talking about a Johnny Smith "Diagonal" fretboard system for site reading. I never really thought about it, I was just wondering about some sort of 1 scale system for guitar that would ascend diagonally across the fretboard for site reading. Is there such a thing? Is it just 3 octave scales?"

It was mentioned in the podcast Christian linked to.

"No" is actually not an answer to this question, if you're not talking about Johnny Smith.

[joe2758]

As far as reading goes, I have a firmer opinion. Thinking about scales is of little value.

"I was just wondering about some sort of 1 scale system for guitar that would ascend diagonally across the fretboard for site reading"

Anyway, I do think scales are the basis of reading and 3 octave diagonal scales are good. Segovia scales are a good place to start but I tailored them to suit myself

[PMB]

Shifting positions a whole step up with the pinky is ridiculously inefficient.



The difficult part is "find a sensible fingering that sticks to the diagonal" because it must be both simple and consistent.

I don't use these myself (I wrote them up years ago after coming across the concept in a Sid Jacobs book) but they are at least consistent and simple in conception if not delivery. A better solution following all the comments here may be using the fingering patterns of the descending forms throughout?

[joe2758]

I don't use these myself (I wrote them up years ago after coming across the concept in a Sid Jacobs book) but they are at least consistent and simple in conception if not delivery. A better solution following all the comments here may be using the fingering patterns of the descending forms throughout?

That would be better but ideally shifts should be on a half step. My most common shift for me is 3rd finger to second finger going up a half step, or 2nd finger to first going up a half step etc.

For me easier and also eliminates a slide where i dont want one

[Christian Miller]

Folks complained about Alan Holdworths one fret shifts with his pinky, but it made sense for the sort of lines he played. Dave Creamer did it too for similar reasons.

It is without question one of the five thousand things I find hardest about playing Allan’s lines

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

I don't use these myself (I wrote them up years ago after coming across the concept in a Sid Jacobs book) but they are at least consistent and simple in conception if not delivery. A better solution following all the comments here may be using the fingering patterns of the descending forms throughout?

I've practiced those. Good to know they have a name.

It's one of the things that either falls naturally out of the octave positions. As do some of the Segovia fingerings at least (I haven't looked into those massively).

Makes even more sense in dweeb tuning.

[joe2758]

I practiced those. Good to know they have a name.

It's one of the things that either falls naturally out of the octave positions. As do some of the Segovia fingerings.

Makes even more sense in dweeb tuning.

what are they called

[Mick-7]

Here's an example of a consistent horizontal fingering system, the basic rule is to shift 1-2 frets with the index finger and 1 fret with the pinky if it's efficient. The descending scale fingering would be the same.

[Christian Miller]

what are they called

"Mirrored fingerings"?

[Christian Miller]

Here's an example of a consistent horizontal fingering system, the basic rule is to shift 1-2 frets with the index finger and 1 fret with the pinky if it's efficient.

I'd always rather shift with the 1st or 3rd finger.

[joe2758]

"Mirrored fingerings"?

oh right i'm drunk, anyway you all seem mainly shift with the same finger. must be the standard i guess

[Mick-7]

I'd always rather shift with the 1st or 3rd finger.

My example had no pinky shifts, do you avoid using the pinky?

(I wrote them up years ago after coming across the concept in a Sid Jacobs book)

Jacobs must have really big hands? I saw a chord melody of his that was staff to staff piano voicings, minor 2nds where-ever you look, a recipe for tendonitis.

[Christian Miller]

As far as reading goes, I have a firmer opinion. Thinking about scales is of little value. I think it's much better to learn to read the old fashioned way, and play everything in at least two octaves. Then, you know the neck. You see the notes on the chart and you figure out how to play them. You pick a position that works for the bulk of it and then you problem-solve how to deal with notes that are harder to reach. Could be stretches, position shifts, flattening a finger or whatever. But, unless the chart has you playing a scale, knowing a scale doesn't help much if you know the fretboard.

I tend to agree. Just learning where the notes are and then reading lots seems to have moved things on for me.

That said, I'm sure practicing scales is good for muscle memory. And a scale is a 'word' you will encounter often in music. I teach my kid students to look out for them.

There's also the sight transposing thing that I've been working on lately - you have to know the intervals for that. But that's less about scales maybe?

I dunno. It's good to practice stuff. Mix it up a bit. Keep it challenging.

[joe2758]

My example had no pinky shifts, do you avoid using the pinky?

i do but it would be 4 to finger 3 up a half step. I don't think I ever shift to the 4th finger. But I think I made my point about my preference

[joe2758]

I tend to agree. Just learning where the notes are and then reading lots seems to have moved things on for me.

That said, I'm sure practicing scales is good for muscle memory. And a scale is a 'word' you will encounter often in music. I teach my kid students to look out for them.

There's also the sight transposing thing that I've been working on lately - you have to know the intervals for that. But that's less about scales maybe?

I dunno. It's good to practice stuff. Mix it up a bit. Keep it challenging.

I mentioned this before, but the way scales have helped me with reading is it lead to thinking in "do re mi" transposing is completely automatic. Another way it was surprisingly beneficial for me was reading bass clef is not a challenge at all which is helpful for what i am doing now

and so sully doesn't have a heart attack I will tie it in to say that would be helpful for Johnny Smith books which are in bass clef (im just teasin ya)

[Christian Miller]

My example had no pinky shifts, do you avoid using the pinky?

Yeah I'm not into it. I'll do it for Allan. No one else.

Lage Lund has a system where the 4th finger is only employed for direction changes in scales. I haven't practiced it muhc, but I can see the logic.

TBH I'm moving over to the primarily three fingered thing more these days. No one avoids using the pinky altogether, it's a matter of degree.

[joe2758]

Yeah I'm not into it. I'll do it for Allan. No one else.

Lage Lund has a system where the 4th finger is only employed for direction changes in scales. I haven't practiced it muhc, but I can see the logic.

TBH I'm moving over to the primarily three fingered thing more these days. The 4th finger is just the twiddle finger for so many of the greats.

I follow Sor's advice "never use a weaker finger if a stronger one is available" So this has lead to a lot more shifting in my playing. Doesnt make things harder though

[Christian Miller]

I follow Sor's advice "never use a weaker finger if a stronger one is available" So this has lead to a lot more shifting in my playing. Doesnt make things harder though

Shifting is good and makes things sound good by and large. Or at least I like the aesthetic of them. Most of my favourite players shift a lot. Kurt, Wes, Jim Mullen, probably Charlie Christian, Grant, Pete Bernstein etc... keep it moving. Pat Metheny too, though he's not a big influence on me. Nir Felder is another. Sticking your thumb over the neck give you more reach in melodic playing and allows flat finger techniques like muting, but a no no for classical guitar for hopefully obvious reasons.

Obviously, classical guitarists are concerned primarily with solo music, jazz players with single note improvisation by and large. Not a blanket rule, of course, but it shape the overall approach. Jazz solo players are often more classical which makes sense. If I play counterpoint or partimento stuff, it's got to be a more classical left hand.

Except Adam Rogers - he's super positional, classical correct and shifts a lot with his pinky. Maybe I'd do that for him too. He's up there for me.

So I kind of go into a two schools mindset. Either do the positional four independent thing PERFECTLY - and my fourth finger is a disgrace so that ship has sailed - or go over to the shifty, strong finger thing that seems to often sound so vibey.

It's interesting Sor said that. I think Segovia and Bream were similar.

[joe2758]

About the thumb gliding over top;

Sor left his thumb in place like a pianist pivots on their thumb.

So if I played A-C on fret 1 and 2, I might slide up to play D-F on the same strings and same fingers without moving my thumb