Ways to Play a Scale

[sully75]

Hello all

I've been thinking a bit about practicing scales and I think one of the ways I fail at practicing scales is not having a specific set of goals with practicing them. I was thinking that I could have a list of things I'd want to be able to do on a scale at a specific tempo as a goal and I could sit with a certain scale until doing those things was easy.

I'm not at my guitar right now so I can't really try these out but I was thinking something like
Metronome on 90
Can play and switch easily between
1) Half notes (2 clicks per)
2) Half Note Triplets
3) Quarter notes
4) Quarter note triplets
5) Eighth notes
6) Eight note triplets
7) 16th notes
8) 16th note triplets
(could add groups of 5 and 7). The goal is to be able to start the new rhythm without the lag in time that I normally have (not screwing up the transition between eighth notes and triplets and rushing the triplets)

I could play the scale in patterns, maintaining the scale fingerings (so I have to shift awkwardly)
1) up and down in alternating 2nds (C D C, D E D, E F E....)
2) Up and down in thirds (C E D F E G...)
3) 4ths etc

I could apply these to
Segovia Scales
Caged Scales in position
3NPS scales

I dunno. I'm just thinking of this but I think it would be helpful. I was wondering if anyone does anything like this or has goals in a scale?

[Strat-itis]

Yes, absolutely. Since I'm studying Milt, I focus on triplets and 16th notes as those are the hardest to get the inflection down. While I work all the slower ones. And I do the faster ones - 16th note triplets and 32nd notes, but 32nd notes are more double timed 16th notes on ballads and are similar. So triplets and 16th notes are my bread and butter.

Here is the BH single note outline for what to practice on a scale contour wise:

What to practice on scales
A. 3rds
B. Triads
C. Chords - 4 or 5 note arp.
D. Pivots
E. Intervals (post hoc)
F. Shells (post hoc)
G. 3, 4, and 5 note sequences
H. Universal applications
1. Can add a half step below the 1st note
2. Can add a Nat-back before any note - main note, half step down, main note. A neighbor tone.

[sully75]

Yes, absolutely. Since I'm studying Milt, I focus on triplets and 16th notes as those are the hardest to get the inflection down. While I work all the slower ones. And I do the faster ones - 16th note triplets and 32nd notes, but 32nd notes are more double timed 16th notes on ballads and are similar. So triplets and 16th notes are my bread and butter.

Here is the BH single note outline for what to practice on a scale contour wise:

What to practice on scales
A. 3rds
B. Triads
C. Chords - 4 or 5 note arp.
D. Pivots
E. Intervals (post hoc)
F. Shells (post hoc)
G. 3, 4, and 5 note sequences
H. Universal applications
1. Can add a half step below the 1st note
2. Can add a Nat-back before the 1st note - main note, half step down, main note. A neighbor tone.

Thanks man! I forgot about adding in chromatic neighbor tones as well.
I don't really get e-h?

If you ever wanted to share a video of how you're practicing these, I'd be into it.

[wolflen]

For me I needed to get away from thinking in "scales" and a more melodic approach was needed.

What opened me up to this was thinking in intervallic and melodic patterns.

There are hundreds of melodic patterns using the notes of the scale and covering all degrees of the scale.

Moving them in different sequences of scale degrees adds to the melodic flavor I iii V vii IV vi ii I

through all keys and positions. Adding some rhythmic variations increases the melodic feel.

As you become more comfortable with this kind of stuff and try different patterns you may begin to hear melodic fragments from tunes you may know.

anyway..give it a try

[sully75]

BTW what's Milt?

[pcjazz]

BTW what's Milt?

Jackson

[Strat-itis]

Thanks man! I forgot about adding in chromatic neighbor tones as well.
I don't really get e-h?

If you ever wanted to share a video of how you're practicing these, I'd be into it.

You're welcome!

Intervals are wider intervals like 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th etc. You can sequence them over a scale like C, F, D, G, E, A, F, B, G, C etc. Or you can make different more musical patterns, or just throw them in for jumps.

Shells are a chord (4 note arp) with a missing middle note.

3, 4, 5 note sequences are like C, D, E / D, E, F / E, F, G etc.

Then you can add a half step in front of the devices like B, C, E, G, Bb for a dominant 7 arp.

Nat back would be C, B, C, E, G, Bb.

I can go over this more later after work or look for videos. But yeah, there's nothing wrong with 'scales', you just have to practice them in systemically musical ways. And disclaimer: this is me trying to outline Chris Park's Barry Harris teaching accurately. But everyone's free (duh) to interpret the materials in a way that works best for them.

[AllanAllen]

Hello all

I've been thinking a bit about practicing scales and I think one of the ways I fail at practicing scales is not having a specific set of goals with practicing them. I was thinking that I could have a list of things I'd want to be able to do on a scale at a specific tempo as a goal and I could sit with a certain scale until doing those things was easy.

I'm not at my guitar right now so I can't really try these out but I was thinking something like
Metronome on 90
Can play and switch easily between
1) Half notes (2 clicks per)
2) Half Note Triplets
3) Quarter notes
4) Quarter note triplets
5) Eighth notes
6) Eight note triplets
7) 16th notes
8) 16th note triplets
(could add groups of 5 and 7). The goal is to be able to start the new rhythm without the lag in time that I normally have (not screwing up the transition between eighth notes and triplets and rushing the triplets)

I could play the scale in patterns, maintaining the scale fingerings (so I have to shift awkwardly)
1) up and down in alternating 2nds (C D C, D E D, E F E....)
2) Up and down in thirds (C E D F E G...)
3) 4ths etc

I could apply these to
Segovia Scales
Caged Scales in position
3NPS scales

I dunno. I'm just thinking of this but I think it would be helpful. I was wondering if anyone does anything like this or has goals in a scale?

That’s a lot of scale goals. 5-10 minutes on scales a day is plenty.

How many Parker heads do you know?

I think my playing improved when I started learning Parker stuff over scales in isolation.

I think it’s interesting, your 1-8 list seems more rhythmic than scale pattern based. Which I didn’t think to do.

I would add the 3rds, then triads, then 7th chord arpeggios to your rhythmic exercises. These come up a lot in jazz lines.

[Mick-7]

For me I needed to get away from thinking in "scales" and a more melodic approach was needed.

What opened me up to this was thinking in intervallic and melodic patterns.

Yes, take a scale and make melodies out of it, run it through chord changes, modifying it as needed to fit the various chords. I mean, the ultimate goal is to make music with the scales. But adding chromatic notes to them is useful, and if you have trouble hearing particular intervals, make them a focus of your scale practice.

[sully75]

Adam Rogers seems to practice a lot of scales. I think that's a good enough reason.

[sully75]

That’s a lot of scale goals. 5-10 minutes on scales a day is plenty.

How many Parker heads do you know?

I think my playing improved when I started learning Parker stuff over scales in isolation.

I think it’s interesting, your 1-8 list seems more rhythmic than scale pattern based. Which I didn’t think to do.

I would add the 3rds, then triads, then 7th chord arpeggios to your rhythmic exercises. These come up a lot in jazz lines.

Right now pick up the guitar, metronome at 30, play an F Major 3 octave scales in 16th notes (4 notes per click), maintain whatever scale fingerling you use for every note (Segovia scales if you know them).

Easy? Do you hit the beat accurately every time? Are your shifts accurate? Tone is good?

Cool, now do it in quarter note triplets 30 (3 notes per 2 clicks).

[sully75]

You're welcome!

Intervals are wider intervals like 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th etc. You can sequence them over a scale like C, F, D, G, E, A, F, B, G, C etc. Or you can make different more musical patterns, or just throw them in for jumps.

Shells are a chord (4 note arp) with a missing middle note.

3, 4, 5 note sequences are like C, D, E / D, E, F / E, F, G etc.

Then you can add a half step in front of the devices like B, C, E, G, Bb for a dominant 7 arp.

Nat back would be C, B, C, E, G, Bb.

I can go over this more later after work or look for videos. But yeah, there's nothing wrong with 'scales', you just have to practice them in systemically musical ways. And disclaimer: this is me trying to outline Chris Park's Barry Harris teaching accurately. But everyone's free (duh) to interpret the materials in a way that works best for them.

What's "universal applications"?

I'm working on a cheat sheet, let me know what you think:
Scale Method - Google Docs

[Christian Miller]

There's basically no end to the way you can practice scales.

[sully75]

There's basically no end to the way you can practice scales.

I know...that's the problem. If there's no end, it's sort of hard to find benchmarks and goals to practice towards. Seems like, anyway. I'm trying to set up some goals where I cam say "OK I can do that, let's try something else".

[Tal_175]

What's "universal applications"?

I'm working on a cheat sheet, let me know what you think:
Scale Method - Google Docs

Note, in the document, the descriptions of interval patterns indicate you are perhaps not seeing the concept behind them:

1. Up a 3rd, down a 2nd (C E D F E G)
2. Up a 4th, down a 3rd (C F D G E A)

For example in the first item, you are not going down a second, you are just sequencing 3rds up a scale. That's better way of thinking about it. That's one of the most standard scale patterns. You play 3rds up (C E, D F, E G ...) then down (E C, F D, G E). Then one up, one down ( C E, F D ...), then reverse (E C, D F ...).

You continue all intervals, diatonic arpeggios and all inversions this way. Up then, down then, up-down then, down-up.

[Tal_175]

You can play various games with scale patterns. Bach's favorite game is to start with I chord (1, 3, 5, 7), first descend 5 and 7 scale degrees, then descend 1 and 3. Continue this way and you'll get what Fareed Haque called the grand daddy chord progression:
IM7->IV (4-3) -> vii-7b5 -> iii(4-3) -> vi-7 -> ii(4-3) -> V7 -> Imaj7.

I like exploring these games when I play intervallic scale patterns within a position. As Christian said there is no end to the way you can practice scales. You can reinvent 500 years of harmony with simple patterns. You can add chromatic steps to above and create secondary dominants along the way. It's basically the micro cosmos of all standards.

[joe2758]

There's no end, but there is a point in the complexity of patterns where it starts sounding like music.

[Christian Miller]

I know...that's the problem. If there's no end, it's sort of hard to find benchmarks and goals to practice towards. Seems like, anyway. I'm trying to set up some goals where I can say "OK I can do that, let's try something else".

Personally I find it helps me to let the music lead it.

The Barry Harris stuff has to do with bebop for instance.

[Christian Miller]

There's no end, but there is a point in the complexity of patterns where it starts sounding like music.

That threshold is perhaps lower than it might seem....

[bako]

There's basically no end to the way you can practice scales.

This is not a reply to Christian, just quoting him as a starting point.
Scales and arpeggio practice is a blank template for a myriad of goals.
A few examples:

Learning multiple fingerings to better learn the fingerboard
Practicing different rhythmic subdivisions works on timing clarity and technique.
Scale patterns work on alternate movement scenarios within the note collection.
There are both what I call mechanical patterns such as 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, etc. as well as taking a musical phrase with a musical intention and crafting a pattern/sequence.
Articulation and dynamics.
Free play, improvising within a given note collection.
Playing scales for ear training, recognizing when those notes are in a phrase and becoming aware when additional notes occur.

Practicing scales because we think we should only gets us so far.
What are your present goals? This is what should dictate what to do with your scale/arpeggio practice.

[AllanAllen]

Right now pick up the guitar, metronome at 30, play an F Major 3 octave scales in 16th notes (4 notes per click), maintain whatever scale fingerling you use for every note (Segovia scales if you know them).

Easy? Do you hit the beat accurately every time? Are your shifts accurate? Tone is good?

Cool, now do it in quarter note triplets 30 (3 notes per 2 clicks).

You seem to think that I'm not in favor of scale practice. That wasn't my point, my point was don't focus solely on scales. You will never learn everything there is to learn from any scale.

You need a holistic approach to practice otherwise you'll be sitting like a deer in headlights when someone casually says "play me a song" and all you can do are 3 octave scales in varying rhythms at 120 bpm.

For what it's worth, I don't think I even know a 3 octave fingering. At best I have 2 octaves plus a note or two. I can pivot them up, but that's blending fingerings, not specific 3 octave ones. So you know, I have my own stuff to learn and I'm not an expert, just another guitar enthusiast with a keyboard.

[sully75]

You seem to think that I'm not in favor of scale practice. That wasn't my point, my point was don't focus solely on scales. You will never learn everything there is to learn from any scale.

You need a holistic approach to practice otherwise you'll be sitting like a deer in headlights when someone casually says "play me a song" and all you can do are 3 octave scales in varying rhythms at 120 bpm.

For what it's worth, I don't think I even know a 3 octave fingering. At best I have 2 octaves plus a note or two. I can pivot them up, but that's blending fingerings, not specific 3 octave ones. So you know, I have my own stuff to learn and I'm not an expert, just another guitar enthusiast with a keyboard.

Um, is there anything in my post that suggests I'm solely practicing scales?

Not trying to be a jerk and I'm guilty of this myself but sometimes just taking the question at face value can be helpful. I've practiced 3 hours this morning, first hour was working on this cheat sheet and playing the F major Segovia scale in different ways and doesn't seem like wasted time even slightly.

Maybe you should try some Segovia scales and that challenge I mentioned above. It might point to some things to work on.

Now I'm going to practice vocabulary for an hour if i can and that will be it.

[pamosmusic]

That’s a lot of scale goals. 5-10 minutes on scales a day is plenty.

How many Parker heads do you know?

I think my playing improved when I started learning Parker stuff over scales in isolation.

I think it’s interesting, your 1-8 list seems more rhythmic than scale pattern based. Which I didn’t think to do.

I would add the 3rds, then triads, then 7th chord arpeggios to your rhythmic exercises. These come up a lot in jazz lines.

Ten minutes a day on scales is probably fine, but also you should do tons of stuff with scales. So have all this stuff on the list and that’s fine and maybe it takes a year and that’s also fine.

[AllanAllen]

Um, is there anything in my post that suggests I'm solely practicing scales?

Not trying to be a jerk and I'm guilty of this myself but sometimes just taking the question at face value can be helpful.

No, but when I was worried about the stuff you are asking about, I was only playing scales and ignoring tunes and chords.

I also don't think you're being a jerk in any way.

[pamosmusic]

My list of stuff of like “Do You Know That Scale” is …

Diatonic thirds, up down alternating and each with chromatic approaches.

Diatonic fourths with the same.

Diatonic fifths, sixths, sevenths with the same.

Diatonic triads with the same. Diatonic first and second inversion triads with the same.

Diatonic seventh chords with the same.

Then if I’m feeling spicy, diatonic quartal triads and their inversions.

I spend maybe twenty minutes on this when I’m doing it. If I have time, it’s late night TV practice. And I do a key a day. So it’s twelve days on each of those things.

If you’re doing the math, that’s several years to know a scale. Theres also loads of stuff that’s note on there — spread triads anyone? Point being you’ll likely never get to it all. So tinker with stuff and choose things you like.

I usually start people on:

thirds
root position triads
seventh chords
sixths

thats the essential stuff, then just do what’s cool.

But also, you can’t know your instrument well enough. This shouldn’t be all you do. You should do what’s practical, then what’s cool, then go from there, rather than being arbitrarily exhaustive. And you should stop doing this for a while when you feel bored with it so as not to burn out.

But knowing your instrument is good.