Ways to Play a Scale

[Christian Miller]

My example had no pinky shifts, do you avoid using the pinky?

Yeah I'm not into it. I'll do it for Allan. No one else.

Lage Lund has a system where the 4th finger is only employed for direction changes in scales. I haven't practiced it muhc, but I can see the logic.

TBH I'm moving over to the primarily three fingered thing more these days. No one avoids using the pinky altogether, it's a matter of degree.

[joe2758]

Yeah I'm not into it. I'll do it for Allan. No one else.

Lage Lund has a system where the 4th finger is only employed for direction changes in scales. I haven't practiced it muhc, but I can see the logic.

TBH I'm moving over to the primarily three fingered thing more these days. The 4th finger is just the twiddle finger for so many of the greats.

I follow Sor's advice "never use a weaker finger if a stronger one is available" So this has lead to a lot more shifting in my playing. Doesnt make things harder though

[Christian Miller]

I follow Sor's advice "never use a weaker finger if a stronger one is available" So this has lead to a lot more shifting in my playing. Doesnt make things harder though

Shifting is good and makes things sound good by and large. Or at least I like the aesthetic of them. Most of my favourite players shift a lot. Kurt, Wes, Jim Mullen, probably Charlie Christian, Grant, Pete Bernstein etc... keep it moving. Pat Metheny too, though he's not a big influence on me. Nir Felder is another. Sticking your thumb over the neck give you more reach in melodic playing and allows flat finger techniques like muting, but a no no for classical guitar for hopefully obvious reasons.

Obviously, classical guitarists are concerned primarily with solo music, jazz players with single note improvisation by and large. Not a blanket rule, of course, but it shape the overall approach. Jazz solo players are often more classical which makes sense. If I play counterpoint or partimento stuff, it's got to be a more classical left hand.

Except Adam Rogers - he's super positional, classical correct and shifts a lot with his pinky. Maybe I'd do that for him too. He's up there for me.

So I kind of go into a two schools mindset. Either do the positional four independent thing PERFECTLY - and my fourth finger is a disgrace so that ship has sailed - or go over to the shifty, strong finger thing that seems to often sound so vibey.

It's interesting Sor said that. I think Segovia and Bream were similar.

[joe2758]

About the thumb gliding over top;

Sor left his thumb in place like a pianist pivots on their thumb.

So if I played A-C on fret 1 and 2, I might slide up to play D-F on the same strings and same fingers without moving my thumb

[PMB]

"Mirrored fingerings"?

From memory, Sid Jacobs calls them symmetrical fingerings but that seems confusing to me as it suggests symmetrical scales such as the whole tone.

[pamosmusic]

I don't use these myself (I wrote them up years ago after coming across the concept in a Sid Jacobs book) but they are at least consistent and simple in conception if not delivery. A better solution following all the comments here may be using the fingering patterns of the descending forms throughout?

Attachment 127656

I don’t know if this is what Christian was calling “dweeb fingerings” but I would play this for sure with the classical position shifts.

So that first shift on the first line would be

2 4 1 2 4 1 3 SHIFT 2 4 etc

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I'm not into it. I'll do it for Allan. No one else.

Lage Lund has a system where the 4th finger is only employed for direction changes in scales. I haven't practiced it muhc, but I can see the logic.

TBH I'm moving over to the primarily three fingered thing more these days. No one avoids using the pinky altogether, it's a matter of degree.

you’ve gone feral

[joe2758]

I don’t know if this is what Christian was calling “dweeb fingerings” but I would play this for sure with the classical position shifts.

So that first shift on the first line would be

2 4 1 2 4 1 3 SHIFT 2 4 etc

hm so might be safe to say I was right and did a good job?

[Christian Miller]

About the thumb gliding over top;

Sor left his thumb in place like a pianist pivots on their thumb.

So if I played A-C on fret 1 and 2, I might slide up to play D-F on the same strings and same fingers without moving my thumb

Aha. What I tell kids off for and then get upset when I do it myself.

Got it.

To be honest, there's no rules. There are things that make specific things easier or more difficult and it's important to be aware of the specifics. Technique is always about setting things up in a way that will handle most cases well, with some cases being sub optimal. The needs of a classical recitalist obviously being very different to a funk rhythm guitar player, to take the extreme cases.

People who act as if there are rules that should be obeyed I think should look a bit deeper into why those rules exist. But also study the masters.

One thing I like to watch is when classical pianists discuss the physical aspects of the Greats on channels like Tonebase. Or on classical guitar channels, too. It's a type of conversation that vever seems to happen in jazz guitar. I wonder why?

For example, to me, the way Wes played is really interesting. A music student these days who transcribes Wes will just play the correct notes with very proper music school technique and it sounds good - but I think the Wes physically plays is worthy of study. He had an amazing technique that made him sound like him. The vibe is important. The swing.

The way Wes fingered and executed things seems to me as worthy of study as his note choices - presuming you think Wes was one of the Greats, which I do, and don't think you can somehow play better than him just because you had a guitar teacher, which I don't. you might not want to emulate that, but it's a lesson, right there.

But then classical guitarists seem to often feel the way about the older players compared to the modern ones from what I've seen.

We have those wonderful 1965 films of him. We can even see his famous thumb technique. I am forever in the debt the of the guy who filmed that. Unbelievable - I thought I was dreaming when I first saw that over the shoulder shot. Must have been a guitar player. Imagine if you'd had that of something like that for Sor!

[PMB]

Regarding Johnny Smith fingerings, I'd have to check back but at least one of his books went out with no input from JS himself.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t know if this is what Christian was calling “dweeb fingerings” but I would play this for sure with the classical position shifts.

So that first shift on the first line would be

2 4 1 2 4 1 3 SHIFT 2 4 etc

No, I said dweeb tuning. That's perfect fourths.

[pamosmusic]

hm so might be safe to say I was right and did a good job?

FedExing you a pat on the head as we speak

[pamosmusic]

No, I said dweeb tuning. That's perfect fourths.

oh gosh I feel silly now

[joe2758]

Regarding studying the masters, I have been having the best results since I have been focusing on the technique of one person.

picking and chosing parts of this person and that person like a buffet won't always come together.

But studying one person thoroughly it's like: he used 3 right hand fingers because he mostly composed in 3 notes, which is also why he shifted more. The 3 finger right hand allows for otherwise awkward string spacing, but that requires a different hand angle. that angle wotks because he didnt play with nails and so on.

Otherwise someone might think "oh he makes things so awkward to play." when in reality it is the most natural given his technique as a whole

for example, Wes' left hand fingerings was probably a direct result of his thumb

[pauln]

I use a rather classical left hand, four fingers, thumb behind, fingers above with virtually no other contact. From a fixed thumb position I can comfortably finger a six to nine fret span depending on neck location. In actual playing I extend less than this for momentary needs; if what I'm reaching lasts longer my thumb will adjust.

Which kind of "shifts" are being referenced in this thread? I know thumb shift and hand shift...

- global: thumb translation
- local: hand translation relative to fixed thumb

but what is this talk of pinky shift and other finger shifts?

[starjasmine]

Shifting positions a whole step up with the pinky is ridiculously inefficient.

IDK, I do it all the time with no problem. If you tell yourself something is difficult, or impossible ( or inefficient) then it is...

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, or that you have to do it my way. I'm just saying that this particular move presents zero problems for me.

Something to consider: when shifting position, you're moving your whole hand. Unless you are slurring, no finger is in contact with the fretboard.

If I were to slur with my fourth finger, I'd probably back it up with the other three... and move my whole hand.

[Mick-7]

Something to consider: when shifting position, you're moving your whole hand. Unless you are slurring, no finger is in contact with the fretboard.

Yes, which is why I would not use my pinky again to play the next note up, unless it was a semitone slur. Leading with the pinky is always less efficient. We were talking about Johnny Smith earlier, he never does that.

[Mick-7]

From memory, Sid Jacobs calls them symmetrical fingerings but that seems confusing to me as it suggests symmetrical scales such as the whole tone.

Here is an example of a symmetrical fingering, using the same exact fingering pattern (1-2-4) on each set of strings. It's probably the most efficient way to play chromatic lines.

[Christian Miller]

hm so might be safe to say I was right and did a good job?

You ain’t getting nuffink from me son


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[Christian Miller]

Regarding studying the masters, I have been having the best results since I have been focusing on the technique of one person.

picking and chosing parts of this person and that person like a buffet won't always come together.

But studying one person thoroughly it's like: he used 3 right hand fingers because he mostly composed in 3 notes, which is also why he shifted more. The 3 finger right hand allows for otherwise awkward string spacing, but that requires a different hand angle. that angle wotks because he didnt play with nails and so on.

Otherwise someone might think "oh he makes things so awkward to play." when in reality it is the most natural given his technique as a whole

for example, Wes' left hand fingerings was probably a direct result of his thumb

If you mean the left hand thumb, I’d agree. If you mean the right hand thumb I actually disagree.

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[Christian Miller]

IDK, I do it all the time with no problem. If you tell yourself something is difficult, or impossible ( or inefficient) then it is...

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, or that you have to do it my way. I'm just saying that this particular move presents zero problems for me.

Something to consider: when shifting position, you're moving your whole hand. Unless you are slurring, no finger is in contact with the fretboard.

If I were to slur with my fourth finger, I'd probably back it up with the other three... and move my whole hand.

Well in this case you are not of course using the pinky because you are of course moving the arm.

You are also doing that when you slur with a fourth finger slide (ala Allan) but in this case it requires some pressure needs to exerted by the finger as well.


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[GuyBoden]

Makes even more sense in dweeb tuning.

As a 'dweeb' tuner, I can confirm that these patterns are a piece of cake (I don't need to think too much about these patterns).

Same with all symmetrical finger patterns, which can become a problem with 'dweeb' tuning when playing actual music, you can easily become a pattern orientated player.

But, the main 'dweeb' tuning failure is playing guitarist chords and rock riffs.

Johnny B. Goode isn't good for a 'dweeb' tuner............................

[joe2758]

If you mean the left hand thumb, I’d agree. If you mean the right hand thumb I actually disagree.

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I meant left; in this example the guitar is at an angle that makes playing thumb over keeping the wrist straight (opposite for classical) and that angle also keeps the right wrist straight for thumb playing. The left hand fingerings are because of the left hand position...just talking about how it all ties together.

I'm sure there's plenty of people who adopt one of these aspects but not the other and it won't work out the same way.

Like you said about knowing the reason for things/"rules"

[Christian Miller]

I meant left; in this example the guitar is at an angle that makes playing thumb over keeping the wrist straight (opposite for classical) and that angle also keeps the right wrist straight for thumb playing. The left hand fingerings are because of the left hand position...just talking about how it all ties together.

I'm sure there's plenty of people who adopt one of these aspects but not the other and it won't work out the same way.

Like you said about knowing the reason for things/"rules"

Yes I think you are absolutely right. (Have five more jazz points) Which is why calling it 'three fingered' is unhelpful - because Wes uses his pinky (just less then Kenny Burrell or Adam Rogers) and because it over focuses the attention onto the fingers.

Guitar players do this habitually anyway, because so many of us spend our lives looking at our fingers and not, say, our forearms or elbows.

So yes about people not adopting all aspects. If you don't put your thumb over the top, pronate your hand and get into micro-shifting, the pronated/flat finger 'violin' approach is going to seem pointlessly difficult. OTOH if you adopt a classical left hand posture without adopting the whole body posture, you risk carpal tunnel syndrome. There are plenty of wrong ways of dong things, even if there are divergent working solutions.

[Christian Miller]

As a 'dweeb' tuner, I can confirm that these patterns are a piece of cake (I don't need to think too much about these patterns).

Same with all symmetrical finger patterns, which can become a problem with 'dweeb' tuning when playing actual music, you can easily become a pattern orientated player.

But, the main 'dweeb' tuning failure is playing guitarist chords and rock riffs.

Johnny B. Goode isn't good for a 'dweeb' tuner............................

I suppose your choices are dweeb tuning and Dad Rock tuning.

You can't win either way.