Ways to Play a Scale

[sully75]

No, but when I was worried about the stuff you are asking about, I was only playing scales and ignoring tunes and chords.

I also don't think you're being a jerk in any way.

Cool. At the moment, I have time to practice a lot.

Try that exercise though, whatever scale you like. It really points at your internal clock, or in my case, its absence.

[sully75]

Note, in the document, the descriptions of interval patterns indicate you are perhaps not seeing the concept behind them:

1. Up a 3rd, down a 2nd (C E D F E G)
2. Up a 4th, down a 3rd (C F D G E A)

For example in the first item, you are not going down a second, you are just sequencing 3rds up a scale. That's better way of thinking about it. That's one of the most standard scale patterns. You play 3rds up (C E, D F, E G ...) then down (E C, F D, G E). Then one up, one down ( C E, F D ...), then reverse (E C, D F ...).

You continue all intervals, diatonic arpeggios and all inversions this way. Up then, down then, up-down then, down-up.

It's just describing what you are actually doing. If I play e d f e a g, I'm going down in 2nds and up in thirds. I can't say I'm "going up in 2nds".

I think this is sort of how Miles Okizaki describes it and I got it from that sort of thought. The going down can be as important as the going up.

If I'm understanding you correctly.

[Tal_175]

It's just describing what you are actually doing. If I play e d f e a g, I'm going down in 2nds and up in thirds. I can't say I'm "going up in 2nds".

What you have in the document is

1. Up a 3rd, down a 2nd (C E D F E G)

It's a standard pattern of sequencing 3rds up a scale which is what I was referring to.

E D F E A G is a different pattern. Not sure what it has to do with my post.

[GuyBoden]

Adding more chromatics to scales you already know is a great exercise. Probably my fav.

Like this example:

[pamosmusic]

What's "universal applications"?

I'm working on a cheat sheet, let me know what you think:
Scale Method - Google Docs

Its this book:

https://a.co/d/eKek0xu

[Question]

If you are having trouble accurately switching between rhythmic subdivisions you might try to play through all of them on one note, or better yet on a drum practice pad.

I think being able to switch accurately between the various subdivisions this way should make it easier to then try them with scales or melodies.

[sully75]

What you have in the document is

1. Up a 3rd, down a 2nd (C E D F E G)

It's a standard pattern of sequencing 3rds up a scale which is what I was referring to.

E D F E A G is a different pattern. Not sure what it has to do with my post.

They are the same pattern displaced by a note.

C E D F E G F is up a 3rd, down a 2nd. I get that it's sequential thirds. It's also sequential descending 2nds.

[Tal_175]

They are the same pattern displaced by a note.

C E D F E G F is up a 3rd, down a 2nd. I get that it's sequential thirds. It's also sequential descending 2nds.

Sequential descending 2nds would not start with C E.

It's a very common pattern that you see in every pattern resource. After that they usually follow with descending thirds: E C F D G E etc. Then alternate C E F D (3 up 3 down going up a scale). All these exercises are tied together logically when you see the central structure they are based on. Then you do the same with fourths etc.

Sure you can also describe these in terms of their sequential motion, like you are doing in the document. But these exercises have a certain logic that makes you work on a melodic structure (the thirds in this case). There is a danger of missing the point of the exercise when you describe it at a micro level without seeing the big picture.


What best describes the idea behind the following exercise:
C E G
D F A
E G B

a) Triads starting from each scale note.
b) Go up 3rd. go up 3rd, go down 4rth, go up 3rd ...

E G C
F A D
G B E

a) Triad first inversions going up a scale
b) Go up 3rd, go up 4th ...

[sully75]

My list of stuff of like “Do You Know That Scale” is …

Diatonic thirds, up down alternating and each with chromatic approaches.

Diatonic fourths with the same.

Diatonic fifths, sixths, sevenths with the same.

Diatonic triads with the same. Diatonic first and second inversion triads with the same.

Diatonic seventh chords with the same.

Then if I’m feeling spicy, diatonic quartal triads and their inversions.

I spend maybe twenty minutes on this when I’m doing it. If I have time, it’s late night TV practice. And I do a key a day. So it’s twelve days on each of those things.

If you’re doing the math, that’s several years to know a scale. Theres also loads of stuff that’s note on there — spread triads anyone? Point being you’ll likely never get to it all. So tinker with stuff and choose things you like.

I usually start people on:

thirds
root position triads
seventh chords
sixths

thats the essential stuff, then just do what’s cool.

But also, you can’t know your instrument well enough. This shouldn’t be all you do. You should do what’s practical, then what’s cool, then go from there, rather than being arbitrarily exhaustive. And you should stop doing this for a while when you feel bored with it so as not to burn out.

But knowing your instrument is good.

Thanks, that was super helpful. I added a few things I stole from you.

[James W]

The Serious Jazz Practice Book is great but it omits the inversions of the seventh chord arpeggios, which do feature in Bert Ligon's Comprehensive Technique For Jazz Musicians.

[sully75]

The Serious Jazz Practice Book is great but it omits the inversions of the seventh chord arpeggios, which do feature in Bert Ligon's Comprehensive Technique For Jazz Musicians.

Cool, I just ordered cheap ebay copies of both, thank you.

[rpjazzguitar]

In reading all the recommendations (and I'm not arguing with any of them) I'm losing sight of the goal.

To take the simplest scale example, consider Cmajor. Recommendations are to practice it in multiple positions and in multiple note-orders. Is this to be able to find the notes more easily? Play different sequences faster? Train your ear in some way?

For finding the notes, I recommend learning how to read. Play everything in multiple octaves, usually two. Do that, and you'll know where all the notes are and, as a bonus, you'll know how to read. It's months of work, not years, to get to where you can read, say, most of the Real Book heads. At least, slowly with the occasional error. Then you have to learn the notes in the scales, modes and arps you want to use. Can be done with patterns or by note name. A lot of work, either way.

If it's to play sequences faster, that will work, bearing in mind that you will probably end up playing what you practice, so the more musical the practice, the better. I don't know how to best craft the path through this issue.

Ear training? I can't address this. My guess is that it's not the same task for everybody. For me, it has been time on the instrument and singing more than anything else, but I strongly suspect that this varies widely from one person to another.

[sully75]

It is like, super crazy weird to me to have people act so strange about learning how to play scales. I think the goal of just playing scales really well seems pretty self explanatory. It will help you play other things well. They are like simple etudes, called "scales".

I can probably read better than a lot of people here. I don't make a big deal out of it, because I didn't learn all that much, but I graduated from New England Conservatory's Jazz program in upright bass. I can read really well. I can transcribe. My soloing is not amazing at all but it isn't because I'm playing a lot of scales. If anything, my playing would benefit from having more facility with scales.

Do you think Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Adam Rogers, erm, like maybe most people (probably not Wes, definitely not Django) didn't practice scales a significant amount of time?

I honestly don't think I need justification to practice scales or the need to play them "musically". Practicing them musically is part of the process, but I'm totally ok with the idea that just playing scales in a very simple and basic way and in all the permutations discussed, is an absolutely fine part of a larger practice routine. If anything, guitar players probably should practice more scales than other musicians because playing scales cleanly and musically is not the easiest thing due to having multiple ways to play most phrases.

I don't get it. I'm not looking for anyone's approval to spend quality time practicing scales. Particularly as mentioned, these permutations aren't "scales", they are intervals, arpeggios, etc.

I was listening to Jesse Van Ruller "Live at Murphy's Law" the other night, which has quickly become one of my favorite albums, and he does all these really large leaps from the low E upwards, like a 5th or greater, but a few in a row (maybe I'm not explaining it well). I have no idea what he practices but it occurred to me that I would really not be able to access that because being able to play those intervals is just not comfortably in my hands.

The Adam Rogers video on My Music Masterclass, he gets into this in detail and it was very helpful and illuminating to me. His picking and Left hand are so incredibly smooth and he talks about playing (I think) all the Segovia scales and a ton of arpeggios, plus Bach violin stuff, every day. Works for me.

Anyway, I'll keep on scaling.

[Mick-7]

I don't think Charlie Parker and the other beboppers spent much time practicing scales - except of course when they were beginners learning their instrument.

I know that Joe Pass recommended that one relate scales to chords - run them to and from chords. I don't recall what Howard Roberts said about them but I'm sure he goes into it in his Praxis books. ( See: 20 weeks to a higher level of proficiency: Howard Roberts Super Chops )

[deacon Mark]

Scale are fine to practice but I think many years ago I spent too much time with them and should have covered chords and arps. To get to the point the best practice is an actual tune the melody, chords, arps as you move through the tune. Scale are there and it ok to know them but boppers were not playing scales as such.

[sully75]

(whatever)

[Tal_175]

There are two strangely common misconceptions about practicing scales:

- One practices scales because they want to be a able play scales up and down. Practicing scales is about practicing melodic and harmonic material that come from scales. That includes arpeggios, intervals, melodic cells as well as playing up and down. Scales provide a organization to practice these structures in tonal units as well as in terms of instrumental layouts.

- Masters never played scales: Most great improvisors of any era actually played scales. It would be very difficult for example to find an entire solo of Wes Montgomery where he didn't play and ascending or descending strict scalar line at least 7 notes long. It's part of almost everybody's vocabulary.

[sully75]

There is a long (like extremely long) of people practicing scales as ways to isolate technical issues and to build technical facility.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think Charlie Parker and the other beboppers spent much time practicing scales - except of course when they were beginners learning their instrument.

That's what I thought until I started transcribing Bird. He may or may not have practiced them but he certainly played them.

Lots of scales and scale fragments in there. Bebop seems like it has to do with scales. Barry certainly thought so.

Random bit of Bird

[Christian Miller]

I think a big blind spot for guitarists regarding the nature of the instrument is regarding what is diatonic and how the diatonic key is used when the chords have chromatic alterations from the basic key (which is basically a given for all GASB songs)

So for instance, if I am a piano player playing Sunny Side of the Street which is usually played in C, I can see graphically immediately that the second chord, E7, contains a black note, G#.

Then I get to the third chord, Fmaj7, and we can see we are all on the white notes once more. (Obviously for other keys, the pianist would be bearing in mind the key signature.)

When it comes to filling in the gaps between chord tones, we can very simply use these basic key notes, and land on whatever chord tones are in the chords. So in the second chord, E7, we simply play the C scale/white notes down from the E to G# for instance, and we have the sound of the chord in the scale, without having to do much brain work.

This relates to the way Barry Harris taught for instance, but it's really a Western Classical approach to playing changes if you like. And a lot of jazz is actually like this. It's sort of the default way to do it.

This is one reason I think everyone serious about out jazz improvisation needs to spend time at a piano keyboard. It makes more sense.

On the guitar, it's hard to see. I think guitarists tend to build scales on chords (as I do), so we think of each chord taking its own (often rather fancy) scale. But the diatonic background to the whole thing gets lost, especially if you start with chord scales. We would say the E7 takes 'E Phrygian dominant' - and it's the same pitches, but a totally different way of arriving at that conclusion involving a whole new scale construction. And a rather clunky one, to my mind.

I should do a video on this.

[charlieparker]

I don't think Charlie Parker and the other beboppers spent much time practicing scales - except of course when they were beginners learning their instrument. Art Pepper said that most musicians he knew did not and he would know first hand (he performed with my college jazz band).

I know that Joe Pass recommended that one relate scales to chords - run them to and from chords. I don't recall what Howard Roberts said about them but I'm sure he goes into it in his Praxis books. ( See: 20 weeks to a higher level of proficiency: Howard Roberts Super Chops )

Parker was big on playing the Klose exercises. There is a recording of him tearing through one.

[pamosmusic]

I don't think Charlie Parker and the other beboppers spent much time practicing scales - except of course when they were beginners learning their instrument. Art Pepper said that most musicians he knew did not and he would know first hand (he performed with my college jazz band).

I know that Joe Pass recommended that one relate scales to chords - run them to and from chords. I don't recall what Howard Roberts said about them but I'm sure he goes into it in his Praxis books. ( See: 20 weeks to a higher level of proficiency: Howard Roberts Super Chops )

Yeah I don’t think generalizations are terribly useful here. Horn players in general almost certainly spent considerable time on scales … Bird loved Bach and played clarinet etudes from what I remember. Miles is the poster child for “Play what you feel, man” and at some point he had a Juilliard audition sufficiently together to be accepted there. Clifford Brown practiced Clark and Arban religiously.

Guitar players are probably a bit of an outlier in that respect and it’s not universal among guitarists. Seems likely that Wes spent some amount of time with scales. Jim Hall was a classical guy at one point, so ditto him. Charlie Christian on the other hand seems to pull a lot of stuff right out of chord shapes and probably didn’t have much use for scales … that so many guitarists idolized him probably could account for the perception that so many guitarist didn’t care for scales. How accurate that perception is is less clear

[sully75]

Yeah I don’t think generalizations are terribly useful here. Horn players in general almost certainly spent considerable time on scales … Bird loved Bach and played clarinet etudes from what I remember. Miles is the poster child for “Play what you feel, man” and at some point he had a Juilliard audition sufficiently together to be accepted there. Clifford Brown practiced Clark and Arban religiously.

Guitar players are probably a bit of an outlier in that respect and it’s not universal among guitarists. Seems likely that Wes spent some amount of time with scales. Jim Hall was a classical guy at one point, so ditto him. Charlie Christian on the other hand seems to pull a lot of stuff right out of chord shapes and probably didn’t have much use for scales … that so many guitarists idolized him probably could account for the perception that so many guitarist didn’t care for scales. How accurate that perception is is less clear

I don't think Django practiced scales, I'm not totally sure he knew what a scale was abstractly. I know a lot of the modern OG Gypsy guys wouldn't really understand why you'd work on them.

Not particularly relevant to someone who wants to work on them, I'm not Django and plenty of people who are great practiced scales.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think a big blind spot for guitarists regarding the nature of the instrument is regarding what is diatonic and how the diatonic key is used when the chords have chromatic alterations from the basic key (which is basically a given for all GASB songs)

So for instance, if I am a piano player playing Sunny Side of the Street which is usually played in C, I can see graphically immediately that the second chord, E7, contains a black note, G#.

Then I get to the third chord, Fmaj7, and we can see we are all on the white notes once more. (Obviously for other keys, the pianist would be bearing in mind the key signature.)

When it comes to filling in the gaps between chord tones, we can very simply use these basic key notes, and land on whatever chord tones are in the chords. So in the second chord, E7, we simply play the C scale/white notes down from the E to G# for instance, and we have the sound of the chord in the scale, without having to do much brain work.

This relates to the way Barry Harris taught for instance, but it's really a Western Classical approach to playing changes if you like. And a lot of jazz is actually like this. It's sort of the default way to do it.

This is one reason I think everyone serious about out jazz improvisation needs to spend time at a piano keyboard. It makes more sense.

On the guitar, it's hard to see. I think guitarists tend to build scales on chords (as I do), so we think of each chord taking its own (often rather fancy) scale. But the diatonic background to the whole thing gets lost, especially if y

ou start with chord scales. We would say the E7 takes 'E Phrygian dominant' - and it's the same pitches, but a totally different way of arriving at that conclusion involving a whole new scale construction. And a rather clunky one, to my mind.

I should do a video on this.

Warren Nunes taught playing within a tonal center. I think he just adjusted it for non-diatonic notes.

[Mick-7]

Well, I learned and practiced scales a lot when I was a novice musician, as most people do, but at some point they became muscle memory so there was no point in continuing to practice them in any sort of formal way. But even when you reach the point where scales are second nature to you, you are still kind of practicing them when you run lines through chord progressions. However, your focus changes, you begin thinking in smaller note sets and combinations - that was my experience anyway.