Ways to Play a Scale

[wolflen]

The jazz guitar forum is a place where when you ask a question you never know what you'll get, but you do know for sure that it will not be an answer.

Mostly true..but that buzzy, blurry,tingling feeling is hard to resist.

For those who know NOTHING about music..but want to learn about it..and are told.."scales are the fundamental building block to music and fairly easy to understand"

Hmm..after reading this thread..the words Fairly..Easy..Understand..and MUSIC..the student may slowly back away from the computer and RUN.

[BreckerFan]

Mostly true..but that buzzy, blurry,tingling feeling is hard to resist.

Notice that I posted my unsolicited opinion on CST BEFORE making the JGT comment lol.

I see the off topic and at times unhinged nature of JGF as a selling point, not a bug.

[sully75]

Notice that I posted my unsolicited opinion on CST BEFORE making the JGT comment lol.

I see the off topic and at times unhinged nature of JGF as a selling point, not a bug.

I have zero problem with off topic conversation, I enjoy it.

The "why are you playing only scales, you'll sound scalar, how many bird heads do you know, scales don't exist in jazz" stuff in relation to what I was asking about is just a fucking time waste.

But I know that I'm addicted to fighting about shit online so it draws me in. That's my own fault. Like I tell my meth addict patients in the hospital, "addictions are addictive, that's why they call them that".

[BreckerFan]

To actually attempt an answer to the OP, scale practice has taken a number of forms for me. I primarily focus on 3 scales and their modes: major, melodic minor, and diminished/octatonic. I think most jazz vocabulary can be played with those pitch sets.

Practice of them includes:
-scales up and down (3nps and caged)
-diatonic triads (chords and arpeggios, root position and inversions) within the scale positions.
-diatonic 7th arpeggios within the scale positions.
-diatonic shell voicings within the scale position (ie, roots following the scale position).
-scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths
-Scales sequences (1234, 1235, 1342, 271, 1321, etc)
-adding chromatic passing tones to make them 8 note "bebop" scales. For this I use either 3 nps fingerings or a fun fingering that alternates 3nps and 5nps, which gives you 3 octaves and covers a lot of fretboard ground (but is difficult to use).

[sully75]

No, not all phrases come directly from scales only. Some use other devices, and some are heard up. Following the pure system of 'CST' - stick one official scale on each chord - is obviously a foolish approach. But everyone knows that, so I don't get why CST is even brought up in the first place if not to use as a red herring.

BH derives all his devices from first a scale to keep things organized even though they become separate shapes, and the result is musical and authentic. But BH built his system post hoc, the musicians in the era used a variety of devices that were available at the time.

I still don't know what a pivot is, is that a BH thing?

[AllanAllen]

I still don't know what a pivot is, is that a BH thing?

Standard arpeggio is first, pivot arpeggio is second. C E F G. This is not the only pivot, but one example of the technique.





Yardbird Suite starts with a pivot. Those pesky bird heads.... I'm always bringing them up for some reason. Ball busting aside, I'm sure you know them but not the name.


If this is new to you, Peter's got a nice PDF on them and Christian probably has 3 videos on them.

[sully75]

Standard arpeggio is first, pivot arpeggio is second. C E F G. This is not the only pivot, but one example of the technique.





Yardbird Suite starts with a pivot. Those pesky bird heads.... I'm always bringing them up for some reason. Ball busting aside, I'm sure you know them but not the name.


If this is new to you, Peter's got a nice PDF on them and Christian probably has 3 videos on them.

It's ok, I forgive you. Thanks for the explanation.

So would there be 4 pivot arpeggios for a major 7th chord? 2nd one starting with a high e?

Here's me playing Donna Lee with no triplets, trying to keep my eighth notes even.

[Strat-itis]

C E F G.

C E G B

Yardbird Suite starts with a pivot.

The Yardbird suite figure isn't technically a BH pivot. Pivot is the 4 note arp only, in the same order as going up, but with the last 3 notes down an octave from the first note.

[sully75]

To actually attempt an answer to the OP, scale practice has taken a number of forms for me. I primarily focus on 3 scales and their modes: major, melodic minor, and diminished/octotonic. I think most jazz vocabulary can be played with those pitch sets.

Practice of them includes:
-scales up and down (3nps and caged)
-diatonic triads (chords and arpeggios, root position and inversions) within the scale positions.
-diatonic 7th arpeggios within the scale positions.
-diatonic shell voicings within the scale position (ie, roots following the scale position).
-scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths
-Scales sequences (1234, 1235, 1342, 271, 1321, etc)
-adding chromatic passing tones to make them 8 note "bebop" scales. For this I use either 3 nps fingerings or a fun fingering that alternates 3nps and 5nps, which gives you 3 octaves and covers a lot of fretboard ground (but is difficult to use).

Good shit in there. Could you elaborate on your fun fingering?

With the shells are you playing CEB DFC EGD?

[AllanAllen]

C E G B

The Yardbird suite figure isn't technically a BH pivot. Pivot is the 4 note arp only, in the same order as going up, but with the last 3 notes down an octave from the first note.

I thought a pivot was an octave jump. You can them in scales and arpeggios.

I dunno, I’m clearly bad with terms. I just said Cmaj7 was CEFG. Lol.

[AllanAllen]

So would there be 4 pivot arpeggios for a major 7th chord? 2nd one starting with a high e?

I think there are 24. You can pivot any note in the arp(4), then multiply that by the remaining inversions(3) then double the number to account for ascending and descending (2).

4!=4*3*2=24

So yeah, 24 options for a 4 note chord.
I think.

[BreckerFan]

Good shit in there. Could you elaborate on your fun fingering?

With the shells are you playing CEB DFC EGD?

Yeah the shells are root third seventh. I guess I've also practiced 3 note quartal voicings the same way too.

The fun bebop fingering in G Major is frets 3, 5, 7 on the low E string and then frets 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 on the A string, sliding with the pinky into the 9th fret. That pattern then repeats starting on the 5th fret of D, and again on the 8th fret of B. Coming down I reverse the pattern and have 3 notes on the high E (15, 14, 12) and 5 on the B (16, 15, 13, 12, 10).

Iterate with various scales and modes, try building similar patterns starting from the 3rd, 5th, or 7th.

I can't say I ever use the full patterns in playing but it's good practice for connecting scale positions with a slide. Kind of Segovia-esque for 3nps with chromaticism.

Also I do find myself using instances of 3-5 patterns where they're more convenient to grab. For example, a two bar ii-V line in D major would be A string, frets 7, 9, 10 D string 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, G string 7.

[sully75]

Yeah the shells are root third seventh. I guess I've also practiced 3 note quartal voicings the same way too.

The fun bebop fingering in G Major is frets 3, 5, 7 on the low E string and then frets 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 on the A string, sliding with the pinky into the 9th fret. That pattern then repeats starting on the 5th fret of D, and again on the 8th fret of B. Coming down I reverse the pattern and have 3 notes on the high E (15, 14, 12) and 5 on the B (16, 15, 13, 12, 10).

Iterate with various scales and modes, try building similar patterns starting from the 3rd, 5th, or 7th.

I can't say I ever use the full patterns in playing but it's good practice for connecting scale positions with a slide. Kind of Segovia-esque for 3nps with chromaticism.

Also I do find myself using instances of 3-5 patterns where they're more convenient to grab. For example, a two bar ii-V line in D major would be A string, frets 7, 9, 10 D string 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, G string 7.

I've been trying doing stuff within the Segovia scales, like only playing the notes with the prescribed fingers but playing the scales in 3rds and 4ths and it seems to be a good and kind of fun practice because it puts you in to really weird shifts.

[pamosmusic]

I thought a pivot was an octave jump. You can them in scales and arpeggios.

I dunno, I’m clearly bad with terms. I just said Cmaj7 was CEFG. Lol.

A pivot is an octave displacement.

That’s the general term but most of the time people are saying “pivot” and referring to a root position seventh chord with octave displacement after the root.

So C … then down the octave to E G B, ending a half step down from where you started

[Christian Miller]

And to think we haven’t even touched on maqamat yet!

And yes that’s part of jazz too….

That’s an interesting perspective on scales btw.

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[Christian Miller]

Standard arpeggio is first, pivot arpeggio is second. C E F G. This is not the only pivot, but one example of the technique.





Yardbird Suite starts with a pivot. Those pesky bird heads.... I'm always bringing them up for some reason. Ball busting aside, I'm sure you know them but not the name.


If this is new to you, Peter's got a nice PDF on them and Christian probably has 3 videos on them.

I’m not sure if I have a video on them

Tbh I always preferred the term octave discernment.

They are very useful for getting out of the typical stepwise/thirdwise melodic contour you can get stuck in with bebop


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[Christian Miller]

To actually attempt an answer to the OP, scale practice has taken a number of forms for me. I primarily focus on 3 scales and their modes: major, melodic minor, and diminished/octatonic. I think most jazz vocabulary can be played with those pitch sets.

Practice of them includes:
-scales up and down (3nps and caged)
-diatonic triads (chords and arpeggios, root position and inversions) within the scale positions.
-diatonic 7th arpeggios within the scale positions.
-diatonic shell voicings within the scale position (ie, roots following the scale position).
-scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths
-Scales sequences (1234, 1235, 1342, 271, 1321, etc)
-adding chromatic passing tones to make them 8 note "bebop" scales. For this I use either 3 nps fingerings or a fun fingering that alternates 3nps and 5nps, which gives you 3 octaves and covers a lot of fretboard ground (but is difficult to use).

Again all of this is really depending on the style of music and how that expresses itself in your individual approach.

If you are into bebop, I’d say major, minor and dominant. Minor includes melodic but also harmonic minor.

Actually it’s about the specific player really. To simplify only a little bit, bebop == Charlie Parker. It’s a period of stylistic uniformity, at least in the note choices. You can’t say the same thing about swing or post bop. Much more diverse eras of jazz.

Dominant scale is 9/10ths of the law in bebop. You do get applied (or important minor) which later people relate to melodic minor modes but it’s looser and more like ‘play Dm shit on G7’ etc.

Diminished is used more in late 50s - 60s jazz by some players. I’m thinking Trane, McCoy … Holdsworth uses it all the time - no surprise there as Trane was his idol… I don’t think Bird used it.

Whole tone scale is huge if you are into your monk and Bud. Wes liked it too. Wayne too… check out his solo on ESP. You’d think he’d use melodic modes. He doesn’t at all.

Some players basically don’t use melodic minor at all, others use it all the time. Joe Henderson seems to like them, Wayne shorter seems like less so.

I mean I’m comparing Wes to Kurt on Nicas dream. Kurt is like a chord scale book. Wes, less so.

It’s much more diverse than you’d think from reading a textbook. What are YOU into?

I passionately feel every young and ambitious young musician needs to be shown what I like to call the Abyss of Despair. Which is to say here is music, it is more than you will ever know. You wouldn’t learn it all if you lived five hundred years

Now, deal with it, make your choices.

Creativity is also about expressing a preference for certain things, but this is inevitably at the expense of others. I find this VERY hard because I am naturally eclectic and a music fan.

But you really do have to choose a path and no one can really tell you what it is. I think grounding yourself in the tradition actually helps with this, because you are still making an intuitive creative choice about what players resonate with you. I’m getting better at trusting that impulse, slowly.

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[sully75]

Standard arpeggio is first, pivot arpeggio is second. C E F G. This is not the only pivot, but one example of the technique.





Yardbird Suite starts with a pivot. Those pesky bird heads.... I'm always bringing them up for some reason. Ball busting aside, I'm sure you know them but not the name.


If this is new to you, Peter's got a nice PDF on them and Christian probably has 3 videos on them.

Where's this PDF at?

[AllanAllen]

Where's this PDF at?

Oh sorry, his username is pamosmusic.

[GuyBoden]

Tbh I always preferred the term octave discernment.

Octave Displacement?

I've started calling them 'Octave Jumps', just to confuse the issue.

Personally, I jump up or down an octave from anywhere in a scale, arp or even phrase.

I did post some simple 'Octave Jump' exercises recently, not that anyone was in the least interested, but I find that this forum is a good place to store my exercises:

[joe2758]

hmm that term sort of sounds like they are jumps of an octave tho. sorry i don't know why i post things lol

[GuyBoden]

hmm that term sort of sounds like they are jumps of an octave tho. sorry i don't know why i post things lol

Yes, it's more simple to play than explain. The next note of the scale, arpeggio or phrase is played an octave up or down.

But, some 'Octave Jumps' sound better than others. Jumping from a chord tone on beat 3 to the next note an octave higher, sounds very good to my ears. I play this a lot.


Example:

[Mick-7]

Octave Displacement?

FYI, the official term for it here in the States now is: "undocumented octave deportation."

[wolflen]

Yes, it's more simple to play than explain. The next note of the scale, arpeggio or phrase is played an octave up or down.

But, some 'Octave Jumps' sound better than others. Jumping from a chord tone on beat 3 to the next note an octave higher, sounds very good to my ears. I play this a lot.


Example:

I have to thank you.. for your "lick of the month" and this kind of stuff. Worked it into the ALL Blues chord structure.

While its intent may be "jazz/bop" flavored..it works very well in my fusion style approach. I stretch out the line with some diminished crunchy lines
and it sounds very hip.

[Christian Miller]

Octave Displacement?

I've started calling them 'Octave Jumps', just to confuse the issue.

Personally, I jump up or down an octave from anywhere in a scale, arp or even phrase.

I did post some simple 'Octave Jump' exercises recently, not that anyone was in the least interested, but I find that this forum is a good place to store my exercises:

Yeah autocorrect lol.


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