Affordable acoustic archtop for a beginner

[Doctor Jeff]

Thanks for the trumpet fingerings LOL!

I’ve always wondered how you could make so many notes with only 3 keys…

[2bornot2bop]

Thanks for the trumpet fingerings LOL!

I’ve always wondered how you could make so many notes with only 3 keys…

Ha! It picked up 2 other photos in my wallet.

It’s simple really. Each key has open key notes. Pedal notes, then low C, middle C, E above middle C, etc. G has open notes also, and this is all before you reach high C. And that’s not even near Maynard Ferguson territory.

You think a guitar is tough staying in tune? Try a Flugelhorn!

And there are different key positions for the same notes. Confused? No problem, just sit back and listen to my favorite, Freddie Hubbard!

[Gabor]

They absolutely are. There’s nothing extreme about personal taste.

...except for other individuals.. :-)

[Gabor]

D'Angelico EXL is a great guitar, has excellent amlified sound way better than anyone expect, but definitely not for acoustic use. This is not because it is laminated, this is because it has so thick poly finish which is like the all guitar was submerged in a poly bath. Again, its PU and amplified sound are better than many way pricier guitars. The acoustic sound like someone is playing the other side of a closed door.

Eastman ar810 is an other kind. Its acoustic sound is way more loud, lively (too lively for me, so it is not guaranteed it is cup of tee for everybody) For an artist is could serve as faithfully givin all nuances, but in general it is not the conventional jazz sound, instead a modern, more open, a bit harsh, even with flatwounds.

I would avoid any Gretsch, those are other kind of animals, not for jazz at least not for first choice.

[EastwoodMike]

The gretsch I linked before was not your typical rockabilly bigsby loaded archtop. It is a Solid spruce acoustic archtop with a floating adjustable pickup. No cutaway. And cheap. A reissue of a very early design.

EM

[RJVB]

Eastman ar810 is an other kind. Its acoustic sound is way more loud, lively (too lively for me, so it is not guaranteed it is cup of tee for everybody) For an artist is could serve as faithfully givin all nuances, but in general it is not the conventional jazz sound, instead a modern, more open, a bit harsh, even with flatwounds.

I've seen Eastman archtops described as having a bright (if not nasal) acoustic tone, not unlike a flat-top. The mahogany back of the AR605/10 could change that as B2B seems to confirm. FWIW, I have a hunch that the nasal aspect (you could also call it "hollow") of steel guitar trebles is somehow related to the high register and big body size. Violas (alto violins) have something similar going on in that their highs sound less good than on a violin, and their lows not as good as on a cello, because the body size is just too much of a compromise for both. Nasal and hollow are also the terms that come to mind.
If that hunch is somewhat on the mark it would also imply that the 17" AR810 sounds a bit harsher than its smaller AR805 sister.
Following this line of thought: it is said of jumbo guitars that they have good treble register (mine definitely has) thanks to their narrow waist and shoulders (it's basically a bigger grand auditorium). Kind of makes sense: those areas give the higher notes a place to develop.
Shape is not something I've seen brought up a lot discussing archtops, but if I look at an archetypal 16" L5 I see a shape that's much closer to the jumbo shape whereas a 17" and larger models have proportionally wider shoulders (and possibly waist). That's even how I guess size from a picture if scale is not of help.

Re: mahogany B&S: the Gibson L48 has those, and the ones I've heard sound great (in non-jazz music too). They cost about as much as a (used) AR805, too...

[Gabor]

The gretsch I linked before was not your typical rockabilly bigsby loaded archtop. It is a Solid spruce acoustic archtop with a floating adjustable pickup. No cutaway. And cheap. A reissue of a very early design.

EM

You are right, but still, the manufacturer's legacy points other direction. Probably I would not want to buy its single car product of a great motorcycle company or vica versa.

[sgosnell]

Different builders have had different approaches to archtop manufacture, for different reasons. It depends largely on the priorities. Not every builder prioritizes acoustic tone, and certainly they don't all try for the exact same tone. Eastman offers affordable Benedettos. When the company was starting up, they went to Bob and wanted him to teach them to build guitars. He wasn't interested and told them to buy his book. They did, and started turning out guitars built to his specifications in the book. Benedetto guitars have never sounded like Gibsons, and he never tried to make Gibson copies. He had his own ideas of what a jazz guitar should be, and lots of players agreed. Many didn't. Tastes differ. I think the primary reason Gibsons sound different from Benedetto and Eastman guitars is the top thickness. Gibsons (at least more recent offerings since at least the 1970s) have much thicker, heavier construction. I suspect that has as much to do with warranty issues as tone, but I have never been privy to inside information. But regardless of the reasons, they sound different. You can buy whichever suits you best. I do not prefer Gibsons. YMMV.

[Filmosound 621]

[2bornot2bop]

Why do you continually post this? It’s plastered all over the forum.

[RJVB]

Gibsons (at least more recent offerings since at least the 1970s) have much thicker, heavier construction.

Which is as good an argument as any on going vintage if you are looking for an acoustic archtop. And on that note, with the OP being in (Eastern) Europe he should probably look around on german-vintage-guitar.com . Many of the makers they tend to have instruments of/by were in or from Eastern Europe, in case that gives them additional appeal.

[jim232777]

That said, I have a Godin 5th Avenue, and with good strings it will get a very good acoustic tone and is reasonably loud. Plus can be amplified easily (my 5th Ave. has a floater; I've had a P90 Kingpin as well). Given the price and availability it is hardly something you're taking a big risk on.

I was thinking this as well. I have the 5th Avvenue Kingpin with 2 P90s and a cutaway, and it is surprisingly loud. I've had a couple of other low end archtops (Ibanez AF75 and Washburn J3, both laminate tops as well); neither were good for playing acoustically--they were almost like solid bodies in volume. You could see at the f-holes that those had a top around 3/16" thick (or maybe 1/4"? it's been a while). The 5th Avenue is much thinner, and I think this contributes to a very resonate top with decent volume even though it is a laminate.

Doctor Jeff--Was your P90 Kingpin the single pup, non-cutaway or the 2 pup w/ cutaway? I'm wondering how the 2 P90 compares to the plain 5th Ave. I think so much of the Kinpin that I would consider getting the pure acoustic version and maybe putting in some sort of acoustic-oriented pickup. I've also been thinking of an acoustic pup to for my current Kingpin, to blend with the P90 tone. Many choices to have fun with!

[pingu]

i find these intriguing ....

GROTE RED Hollow Body Jazz Electric Guitar GRWB-ZTTR – Grote Guitar

but can’t get them here in the uk

[m_d]

Those have an excellent reputation but may lean more towards the electric than the acoustic side of things. Attractive price, although "Japan tune-up" would infer that particular version is not Japan manufacture.
Seventy seven Hawk JAPAN Tune up ABR

[spiro2903]

@rjvb
Tnx for the site link, I will check that out. And you are right, I'm in Croatia so guitar availability is poor. I have looked for older Hofner guitars as some have recommended them, but for an European guitar there seem to be very few of them in Europe. Most sold are from the US or UK (not in the EU anymore).
@b2b
I could get an Eastman for 1500€ but with shipping (300-400€) and taxes (30ish%) it would be well over 2k. There aren't that many Eastman guitars in Europe, and even less second hand ones. But yes, that 610 at 1500$ is a great price.

Right now, I'm leaning towards getting something affordable, like that Gretsch G9555, or finding a good deal on the Loar (I think I would like a fatter neck). Just trying to spend less money, and then saving and trying other guitars for a year or two before getting something better (probably in 2k-3k range), probably also reselling the one I buy now. By that time I would have, hopefully, tried a few guitars and found something I like.

What about Stromberg guitars, any experience with them? I don't know who stocks those, and the second hand prices seem to be between 1k and 30k! Huge price range.

Just found this:
Stromberg Newport

[RJVB]

How about this one? More in the same price range on that site!

August Neubauer, unique piece, 1955 | German Vintage Guitar

[Doctor Jeff]

I was thinking this as well. I have the 5th Avvenue Kingpin with 2 P90s and a cutaway, and it is surprisingly loud. I've had a couple of other low end archtops (Ibanez AF75 and Washburn J3, both laminate tops as well); neither were good for playing acoustically--they were almost like solid bodies in volume. You could see at the f-holes that those had a top around 3/16" thick (or maybe 1/4"? it's been a while). The 5th Avenue is much thinner, and I think this contributes to a very resonate top with decent volume even though it is a laminate.

Doctor Jeff--Was your P90 Kingpin the single pup, non-cutaway or the 2 pup w/ cutaway? I'm wondering how the 2 P90 compares to the plain 5th Ave. I think so much of the Kinpin that I would consider getting the pure acoustic version and maybe putting in some sort of acoustic-oriented pickup. I've also been thinking of an acoustic pup to for my current Kingpin, to blend with the P90 tone. Many choices to have fun with!

I currently have an acoustic 5th Avenue that I installed a floating pickup on (GFS). It has pure nickel round strings on it.

I previously had a single P90 pickup Kingpin. The pickup is installed on top, not set in, so I think it has minimal effect on the acoustic tone. I rather miss it, since that pickup is kind of unique. I don’t currently have any guitars with P90 pickups.

[spiro2903]

Tnx Steve, but I am looking into acoustic archtop. Possibly only with a floating pickup.
Edit: autocorrect

[sgosnell]

There is a huge difference between a new reissue Stromberg made in Asia (China, I assume) and a vintage model. Just as there is between a new D'Angelico and a vintage one.

[citizenk74]

Hi Spiro, see our Conti Entrada Model below, as it might be a good fit for you.

Attachment 93015

• See our worldwide owner commentaries here
• See a sampling of Conti's credentials here

[spiro2903]

Yes, I've seen that. But I am looking for an acoustic archtop, with or without a floating pickup. I have replied, but now I see I haven't included a quote.

[Cavalier]

The gretsch I linked before was not your typical rockabilly bigsby loaded archtop. It is a Solid spruce acoustic archtop with a floating adjustable pickup. No cutaway. And cheap. A reissue of a very early design.

EM

It would be nice to hear a comparison between the similar price Gretsch, Loar and Godin. Ignoring a guitar because of a perceived image does seem counter productive in the search for bang for the bucks. I'm thinking the Gretsch might be preferable to a laminated Ibanez or Dangelico etc... with floater for acoustic use.

[dconeill]

I think the OP would be better off with a flattop, particularly in their price range. Archtop acoustic guitars aren't particularly nice-sounding acoustically, partly because that's not what they were developed to do. They evolved into harsh, low-sustain, percussive rhythm instruments that work well to lay down a harmony/rhythm part with a big band.

Look, for example, at Mimi Fox. She's used archtop guitars for years, but when she lately started adding acoustic guitars to her music she's been using flattops (Taylor IIRC).

So find a nice acoustic flattop in your price range. You can add a soundhole pickup later, if that suits you better than a more traditional-sounding piezo-plus-mic setup. Brands to look at include, but are not limited to, Furch and Taylor. Probably stay away from dreadnoughts (too bassy at least for me), but sizes similar to the Taylor x14 ("Grand Auditorium") and x12 ("Orchestra Model") are pretty versatile. Rosewood or ovankol back and sides, whether laminate or solid, take the tone in a darker direction; mahogany is mid-ier, and maple more trebly. In the OP's price range, a solid top with laminate sides and back is not uncommon.

[RJVB]

I think the OP would be better off with a flattop, particularly in their price range. Archtop acoustic guitars aren't particularly nice-sounding acoustically, partly because that's not what they were developed to do. They evolved into harsh, low-sustain, percussive rhythm instruments that work well to lay down a harmony/rhythm part with a big band.

YMMV ...
Eastman and The Loar both sell acoustic-only archtops which can do so much more than perform honky-tonk duties.

It definitely wouldn't hurt to have more demand for these instruments though!

[spiro2903]

@dconeill I know that archtop sound is different from a flat top, but that is precisely the reason I want one. I like the sound of them. I'd just like to find the best possible one for my budget.
And I believe they are more versatile then just percussive rhythm instruments.