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Alter is, IMHO correct. It is not simply a matter of the faithful reproduction of a signal. Electric guitar speakers are designed specifically to alter the signal coming from your pickups, mainly to elide the transient attack of a plucked note, which if faithfully reproduced and amplified, even at bedroom levels, will severely affect the useful life of those drivers. Professionally recorded music is highly processed, mainly by limiting the dynamic range, but also by altering the frequency response (RIAA Curve, etc), and creates its illusion of accuracy by selectively re-scaling some of the aspects of the signal. A full-size symphony orchestra can put out 120 dbs at a walk. That level in your living room would de-plaster the walls fairly quickly. What is loud and full in your house is orders of magnitude less loud than the levels at which the recordings were made (with the possible exception of small groups. String quartets might be close, but would still sound a bit rude.
Originally Posted by RJVB
Guitar speakers have a limited frequency range as well as a relatively slow dynamic response, which is why most of us love them.
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02-19-2022 02:00 PM
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Without getting into a whole detailed explanation of this, too little power is a greater risk to a speaker than too much because of the very high transients that occur when an amp is pushed passed its tolerances. But if you stay within an audio amp's limits you're unlikely to damage a speaker. So you certainly can use a home stereo with some sort of preamp in front of it to amplify a guitar (something I've done countless times), but If you play loud enough to push the stereo's amp into distortion or generate feedback that can blow speakers, even if the RMS rating of the amp is quite low. In theory, really loud low-frequency transients (without obvious amp distortion) can do it too, so playing a bass through a stereo is a worse idea than playing a guitar. But both can be done. Originally Posted by RJVB
IME, the real problem is that it usually doesn't sound and "feel" like playing through a guitar amp even if you're using a modeling system that very effectively emulates a guitar amp in a recording. The frequency response and distortion characteristics of an audio driver in an audio cabinet and the soundfield itself are just too different from those of an instrument speaker in a guitar cabinet. So it can be a viable compromise if you can't use an amp, but (at least in my experience) it's never a fully satisfactory replacement of one.
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thanks marcwhy i followed your link Originally Posted by marcwhy
As with other examples above, this sort of thing and the Toob maybe should be the future, but musicians can be more old fashioned and stubborn than we'd like to think!
[BTW, I have the unpowered PA Sonuspeaker, which they don't seem to list any more, and it works great! I've also owned the bass speaker.]
to the Sonusphere website and read
through their concepts of wide dispersion
It definitely chimes with my experience
and how they implement it ....
(basically a semi-spherical cabinet with an upward firing driver
+ a tuned passive bass radiator on the bottom)
makes a lot of sense too ....
Have you ever used yours as a guitar speaker ?
how well did it work out ?
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I did notice a transient ahead of each note I played (wearing headphones so as to hear the electric sound over the acoustic), one I couldn't explain and I also never heard before. Originally Posted by citizenk74
Funny thing: in another life I did a private party "gig" with some colleagues, using a borrowed electric violin. The bass player generously offered my the 2nd input of his amp and I was surprised that I got a normal, not a bass-heavy sound out of it. His explanation was that these amps *had* to be able to reproduce the high frequencies very accurately as well, or else you'd never hear slapping etc. Which made me wonder why there are even dedicated bass amps...
RIAA curve: that was for vinyl records IIRC, and no longer used these days?!
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I've got an old NAD "power envelope" amp that supposedly clips and has another trick up its sleeve (it's also got a continuous rather than a RMS rating). Either way, I'm not intending to push it to levels that will disturb my various housemates. In fact, I'll probably be using it with headphones if I have a reason to start using the PU on my archtop, rather than push the gain so I hear the speakers more than the acoustic sound from the guitar. Originally Posted by John A.
I was indeed going to ask about modeling systems (software, a priori) but then decided that I'd be using the clean output anyway. Presumably - in reality I have no idea
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The reason for dedicated bass amps (and other types including guitar) is simple. Money. Where there is money to be made, there will be merchandise to make it.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
More vinyl LPs are sold than digital downloads or CDs at the present time. Ask Forum member 2bornottobop about vinyl. Pack a lunch.
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I’d love to see your source for that, because RIAA data suggest otherwise. Here’s their 2021 mid year report. More money was generated from vinyl sales, but the cost of records is far, far higher than the cost of digital versions of the same music (except the very limited high resolution CD and download market). Originally Posted by citizenk74
Digital permanent downloads generated $318.7 million in the first half of 2021, while CD sales brought in $205.3 million, and vinyl sales generated $467.4 million. But this equates to 134.5 million “units” (an unstratified mix of singles and albums) of digital - this is almost 9 times the volume of physical units of each (16.1 million CDs, and 17 million LPs and EPs).
For perspective, music streaming subscriptions generated $5908.4 million over the same 6 months (Jan-Jun 2021).
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I do have an amp specific question and the relationship between classD amp wattage and rated speaker wattage.
correct me if I am wrong in my understanding:
the output wattage of a ClassD can be 200w (or more) without issue. But this is power before clipping distortion of the amp? (Not talking about tubes).
Transients and impulse signals might consume this or close to this wattage but are short lived and the amp power supply recovers. This 200w figure is not the sustained output unless something bad is happening..?
speaker drivers though are rarely rated this high though with most in the 40-80w range.
Is it possible to damage a 50w speaker using a 200w ClassD amp? Answer to me seems yes. Likely? Probably not. But how likely? No idea.
I seem to be missing a key decision factor- If I have a 200w classD amp what speaker can I pair with it safely without making an expensive toaster but still enjoy the headroom of the 200w? How tolerant are speakers to these transients??
How do we even know what average wattage the Speaker drivers are experiencing? Is there a basic rule of thumb ratio to adhere to?
Your insights are appreciated
kind regards
EM
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I always forget about that (guess what I do NOT make Originally Posted by sgosnell
). I was looking at the Vox Pathfinder 10 amp the other day, and wondering what the difference was between the guitar version and the bass version. Maybe just some aesthetic details then?
Be that as it may (or not), I still hope RIAA filtering is absent from the latter two (if not only because I understand you have to pay to apply what is basically the inverse transfer function of the groove-through-needle signal path?!) Originally Posted by citizenk74
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It's what the Google machine said. My apologies for any misunderstanding. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Hey Pingu, Originally Posted by pingu
No, I didn't play the guitar through the bass cab; the bass, though, sure filled up a room!
Marc
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I can't comment on the future of jazz guitar amplification, but I can post some photos showing how what I gig with has changed over the years:
1966. I'm mostly hidden behind the singers--
1967. Sharing a big Fender with the bass player:
1967. JVC "Twin" with four 6BQ5s:
1969. Film misfeed. '68 drip-edge Bandmaster w/2-12" Altecs, Fender "oilcan" delay:
1970. Kustom SC w/2-12" Altecs. My first non-tube amp:
1978. Peavey Musician on Kustom w 2-15" Altecs
1988. Fender SS Showman w/EV-15L (72 lbs!) + '66 Tremolux:
1994. Boogie MKIV w/EV-12L open back & EV-12L Thiele:
2010. Acoustic Image combos with 10" downfiring woofer and 5" or 10" front firing midrange + tweeter:
Now. AI Clarus SL-R w/Doubleshot 2-10" side-firing + 5" front firing:
I've had fun with all those amps, and many more, but I love having a 17.5 lb amp I can gig with that sounds much better than the Baby Brute I owned for 20 years.
Danny W.Last edited by Danny W.; 02-21-2022 at 10:09 AM.
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Just a thought here…
The future of jazz guitar amplification is not only driven by technology (the main discussion of this thread) but by the popularity of the genre and the scale/types of venues that support it. Jazz as a total genre is about 1% of music purchased today and jazz guitar is a microcosm of that.
Lightweight, powerful solid state rigs became more and more popular with gigging musicians, not only because they provide a sonorous clean tones and are reliable, but because many club/restaurants that still support jazz guitar are urban (ingress/egress challenges), small (lower power requirements) and musicians carry and set up their own gear.
My $.02
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And more awareness of the dangers of too high sound levels?
The 1st place where I saw a dB meter (readout turned towards the stage!) was in a *tiny* Parisian music café (the Café Universel).
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Thanks for that excellent history tour
Danny !
which was you favourite purely for sound ?
(I could guess)
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And if you think that's cool, just wait until you hit 75 - you're gonna love a 2 pound head and a 9 pound speaker cab even more!! Originally Posted by Danny W.
PS: I had the same Kustom but with two 10s because the one with 12s wouldn't fit in my Fiat 850. It was the noisiest amp I ever had - it hissed like a box of snakes. It was great for weddings, but it was far from a jazz amp even with my 175.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 02-21-2022 at 12:24 PM.
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Forget "continuous" vs "RMS" and just use "power before the onset of distortion" for purposes of this discussion (trying to avoid the rabbit hole of how audio amp power is measured and advertised). More is better than less when it comes to protecting speakers, up to a point (more rabbit hole evasion). Originally Posted by RJVB
I've got an old NAD "power envelope" amp that supposedly clips and has another trick up its sleeve (it's also got a continuous rather than a RMS rating). Either way, I'm not intending to push it to levels that will disturb my various housemates. In fact, I'll probably be using it with headphones if I have a reason to start using the PU on my archtop, rather than push the gain so I hear the speakers more than the acoustic sound from the guitar.
I was indeed going to ask about modeling systems (software, a priori) but then decided that I'd be using the clean output anyway. Presumably - in reality I have no idea
Modeling systems are not necessarily software. The Tech21/SansAmp stuff is analog, as are knockoffs such as Joyo, and I imagine others. But again, for purposes of this discussion that's not important. Forget "modeler" and substitute "box that supposedly makes a non-guitar-amp of some kind sound like a guitar amp."
My point is that plugging into a home audio system can work without damaging your speakers (or headphones). I have done it for decades and never blown either. But it tends not to sound and "feel" like a guitar amp as you play, even with really good amp-emulation up front. I'd say this is equally true of distorted and "clean" sounds. But it works, and might sound OK to you.
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My take on bass amps versus guitar amps (ignoring combos or cabinets) is that: Originally Posted by RJVB
- Bass players *need* higher watt amps (more power needed to move speakers to generate lower frequencies)
- Bass players *like* cleaner amps. YMMV but clean bass amps seems cleaner than "clean" guitar amps to me.
- EQ -- you can have a super flexible EQ that could work for guitar and bass, but both players like an EQ designed with them in mind. Fewer players are natural-born tweakers.
All that said, a bass amp can work great for guitar, given the right cab and EQ.Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 02-21-2022 at 05:08 PM.
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The problem with that approach is that there’s always distortion. The relevant specs include at what distortion level the amp is rated by the manufacturer, what kind of distortion is used for the spec, and how much of that distortion is audible and bothersome to you. Your point is not lost, though - what matters is how it performs for you, not the numbers attached to it by the manufacturer. Originally Posted by John A.
The same amp could be rated at 10, 35, or 100 watts. A given amp with a power supply and output stage characteristics to support the highest output rating below might be sold as “10 WRMS @ 0.5% THD from 40 to 5kHz with a 1 volt input”, “35 W continuous @ 2% THD @ 1 kHz with a 2 volt input”, or “100 W peak @ 10% THD @ 1 kHz with a 5 volt input”. Shorten that spec to the wattage alone and you have today’s industry standard rating system. Guess which rating most use?
A more honest rating for many would be “X watts just before detonation”.
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Ditto! Small Class D bass amps are actually "smart" universal power amps with at least 3-band eq and perfectly usable for guitar, even with no preamp. This applies especially to the models without too many bass-specific bells and whistles that complicate settings and drive up the price tag. I've done quite a few gigs with G&K MB200 (dry and sterile), T-E Elf (brownish-bassish), TC Electronic BAM200 (warm, perfect eq shelves - my fave) and Warwick Elf (passable but better for bass). Before these, I briefly used Fender's Rumble 200 head. Good-sounding and lightweight but physically much larger. None of these have an on-board reverb, which is why my current go-to amp is the Quilter SuperBlock US. Enough clean noise from the 6.5" Metros and amply so from the larger Toobs. Another contemporary amp lineage is all the Class D amps using the IcePower amp module. Not all amp makers want to admit what's inside but users include Henriksen and Raezer's Edge for sure. Milkman, S-D and even Fender Tone Masters have been mentioned in this connection. Plus, those modules can be found in numerous powered PA cabs. IcePower is a formally independent offshoot of the Danish HiFi icon B&O. I'm sure someone here can fill in. Companies with definitely proprietary Class D stuff include at least DV Mark and Quilter. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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The first place we were dB-ed was a longtime rock joint in a converted bowling alley in a mixed residential/small business neighborhood in the mid-70s. Drums/bass/gtr & vocals. Bass player used a bigazz Fender rig, I used a Sunn Concert Lead (300 ss watts) driving a 6 - 10" Traynor cab, if memory serves. We were thrown out two weeks in a row, mid-gig, for being too loud. Originally Posted by RJVB
Riddle me this: when you book a power trio calling itself "The Stoopid Idiots" what, exactly are you expecting? Lullabys?
Filed to: Live and Learn.
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^^^ That reminds me! On the B versus G amp thing, many guitar players want an amp with reverb built in. I'm happy with a pedal.
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This made me laugh—I’ve passed that milestone, thank you! Right now I’m fine with a 2.5 lb head & 15 lb cab, since I drive to all my gigs and use a wheelie. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit;[URL="tel:1181765"
1181765[/URL]]And if you think that's cool, just wait until you hit 75 - you're gonna love a 2 pound head and a 9 pound speaker cab even more!!
PS: I had the same Kustom but with two 10s because the one with 12s wouldn't fit in my Fiat 850. It was the noisiest amp I ever had - it hissed like a box of snakes. It was great for weddings, but it was far from a jazz amp even with my 175.
My little Kustom was not noisy at all, and louder than my band mate’s Twin.
Danny W.
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Maybe yours was a different model - mine was a 150. I didn't notice it in the store because of the usual cacophony of budding rockers. But as soon as I got it home and plugged it in, I went back to the shop and checked out their other 150s - they all hissed like leaky steam boilers. It was a great little amp, though - loud, clean, and versatile enough for commercial gigs. And with an EH LPB-1 in front, it was smooth enough for the blues. Keep the faith! Originally Posted by Danny W.
David
[EDIT] I just found a quote about this from the GearPage thread on old Kustoms. John Fogarty used a 200A4 on tour, but "...[t]hey sound hiss'y, that's why Fogarty tracked with a Deluxe".
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