Future of jazz guitar amplification?

[pingu]

snip
Another contemporary amp lineage is all the Class D amps using the IcePower amp module. Not all amp makers want to admit what's inside but users include Henriksen and Raezer's Edge for sure. Milkman, S-D and even Fender Tone Masters have been mentioned in this connection. Plus, those modules can be found in numerous powered PA cabs. IcePower is a formally independent offshoot of the Danish HiFi icon B&O. I'm sure someone here can fill in. Companies with definitely proprietary Class D stuff include at least DV Mark and Quilter.

is it these ?

https://icepower.dk/products/amplifier-power-modules/

[Gitterbug]

Yes.

[John A.]

The problem with that approach is that there’s always distortion. The relevant specs include at what distortion level the amp is rated by the manufacturer, what kind of distortion is used for the spec, and how much of that distortion is audible and bothersome to you. Your point is not lost, though - what matters is how it performs for you, not the numbers attached to it by the manufacturer.

The same amp could be rated at 10, 35, or 100 watts. A given amp with a power supply and output stage characteristics to support the highest output rating below might be sold as “10 WRMS @ 0.5% THD from 40 to 5kHz with a 1 volt input”, “35 W continuous @ 2% THD @ 1 kHz with a 2 volt input”, or “100 W peak @ 10% THD @ 1 kHz with a 5 volt input”. Shorten that spec to the wattage alone and you have today’s industry standard rating system. Guess which rating most use?

A more honest rating for many would be “X watts just before detonation”.

I was trying to avoid that rabbit hole ... No joy, alas.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I was trying to avoid that rabbit hole ... No joy, alas.

Sorry! Specs be damned, the simple truth is that a manufacturer can "rate" an amplifier however he or she chooses and is legally allowed to call it whatever he or she wants to call it. Unless you know what you're reading (and what's missing from what you're reading), there's simply no way to know what to expect unless you (or someone you trust implicitly) have personal experience with the product, the maker, and sometimes both. You just have to hear it, play through it, and decide if it's right for you on your own.

I bought and returned a few amps over the years that simply weren't what they were supposed to be. I bought the first Peavey Transtube that came into my dealer years ago because it seemed fine in the store and at home - and it was amazingly light compared to my Boogie Mk 1! But when I took it on a gig, it was anemic and went back the next day. Yet my 7.5W (in Class A tridode) Vox Night Train head through a RE 10" cab holds its own with horn based blues bands with way-too-loud drummers.

Caveat emptor!

[Danny W.]

Thanks for that excellent history tour
Danny !

which was you favourite purely for sound ?
(I could guess)

At any given time in those photos I was playing through something that sounded appropriate for the music I was playing. Over the years I've played doo wop, surf, R&B, soul, folk, pit, jazz and big band, so what I considered a great sound varied. For jazz the rig I liked most, strictly from an absolute sound viewpoint, probably was this:



It's an Acoustic Image Clarus head into a Raezer's Edge Twin-8-Tower cabinet. The one I currently own is an extended range one-off Rich built for me. I retired it after a few years because it weighs 39 lbs and the AI Coda I had at the time sounded really good for 20 lbs. The T-8-T-ER is still in use every day at home:



Danny W.

[lstelie]

I find the trend is going in the other direction; the instrument amps make a strong comeback on stage. Classic tube amps are in favour.

I do agree , but I wonder wether it’s a musical move or a sociological move.
In a incredibly agressive and hostile world, old stuff is reassuring (as it’s the case with vinyl records vs streamed music , analog film in photography vs digital memory cards and so on)
Another thing that can change the game are the news: Russia making large efforts to be the new evil, followed closely by China, what will happen with tubes ???

Luc

[Little Jay]

Another thing that can change the game are the news: Russia making large efforts to be the new evil, followed closely by China, what will happen with tubes ???

Luc

I am stocking tubes…. Buying them used, on flea markets, online auctions, etc.

I already have enough 12at7, 12ax7, 6V6, 6L6 and EL84 and EL36 to keep my tube amps playing until well beyond my retirement ;-)

[EastwoodMike]

Saw this on a ‘that pedal show’ episode on boosts.

Dept. 10 Boost - Blackstar

looks like a nice poor man’s Kingsley clean boost. Bet it would sound ace into a Quilter super block!

EM

[JCat]

what will happen with tubes ???

Luc

I'm very pleased with JJ-tubes (made in Slovakia, EU).
I currently use 6V6, EL84 and 12AX7 from JJ. I find these are of superior quality compared to other new production tubes.

[Herbie]

I do agree , but I wonder wether it’s a musical move or a sociological move.
In a incredibly agressive and hostile world, old stuff is reassuring (as it’s the case with vinyl records vs streamed music , analog film in photography vs digital memory cards and so on)
Another thing that can change the game are the news: Russia making large efforts to be the new evil, followed closely by China, what will happen with tubes ???
Luc

I am not sure about this theory. Decades ago when times were violent and uncertain (meaning WW II) Charlie Christian and Les Paul pioneered with electrified guitars and amps. During the Vietnam war Jimi Hendrix pioneered fuzzes and brought the electric guitar to a new level in both sound and volume.

I think that futuristic solutions can work as escapism.

But the tube situation is interesting point of view. Maybe it is the time to start a quality tube factory in West too. Or in Africa?

[pingu]

Saw this on a ‘that pedal show’ episode on boosts.

Dept. 10 Boost - Blackstar

looks like a nice poor man’s Kingsley clean boost. Bet it would sound ace into a Quilter super block!

EM

found this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=42I_h15pBho

ah ha now we’re cooking with
some gas .....

that could work for me ....
straight into a clean power amp/speaker
and/or a PA !

It sounds like a valve amp to me
(210 of your volts !)

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Maybe it is the time to start a quality tube factory in West too.

The problem is not building a factory that makes quality tubes. The problem is building a quality factory that makes tubes. It was the EPA that pushed tube makers over the cliff in the USA, aided only slightly by a shrinking market. Traditional tube manufacturing was a serious environmental hazard. It appears that Eastern European and Asian countries are not so concerned about this.

[EastwoodMike]

I'm too young to know or remember how tubes used to be made. But I do know that when tubes were being made, pretty much anything (paint, batteries, fertiliser, you name it) was made at a lesser standard than they are today. My generation is still cleaning up that heavy metal mess and so will my children's. The only difference being that paint, fert, batteries etc are still needed in sufficient demand for industry to figure out how to do the same task safer, cleaner, more reliably. Even in eastern European countries and Asian countries-

While it is fair to say labour is cheaper there, we need to remember that they can still manufacture to a cleanliness status required for IC manufacture and the class-A clean room standards that entails, not to mention the scale of automation in some of those industries.

My suspicion is that Tubes had their heyday in a world before automation & robotics existed in the manner it does today. To justify the design time and effort today to make efficient, fast, automated, precise and clean machines for the market it provides for- it is likely cheaper to stick with manual driven processes.

Hence it will happen where manual labour is cheap. Unfortunately that excludes most developed nations where cost of living is high.

I don't know if that means it has to be as environmentally hazardous as it used to be though. That probably comes down to the ethics of the company as much as local restrictions. They know from our experience how hazardous these activities could be. They see what impact it had on us. It would be sad to hear that companies today like EHX or JJ with all that knowledge would subject their employees to all that risk knowingly. I hope its not the case. It would make me feel bad about buying those EHX EF86 preamp tubes.....

EM.

[RJVB]

Let's not forget that not all Russian entreprises are evil. Unless you count paying taxes to their government, but in that case you also shouldn't be buying anything that comes out of China.

In which case you probably wouldn't be reading this right now, because can you think of a single computer brand that uses NO parts made in China?

How are the JJ tubes compared to Tungsol (Chinese if I'm not mistaken)? I replaced the stock Chinese 12AX7 in my Art Tube MP preamp with one of those which *may* have given me a slightly better SNR.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

As I recall, the major environmental hazard in vacuum tube manufacture is thoriated tungsten. Our navy is currently exploring environmentally acceptable ways of making vacuum tubes because they’re still important in microwave and other military uses.

Very high frequencies wreak havoc on a lot of SS electronics. When the first SS heliarc welders came out, they were tiny compared to the refrigerator-sized units then in use (my Hobart TIGwave 250 was a 150 pound monster). So everybody ran out and bought one - and the high frequency “start” circuits fried on most of them within weeks to months.

So it’s too soon to give up on tubes. But eventually there will be SS stuff to replace all of them. The question is whether new manufacturing tech for tubes will be developed in time.

[Gitterbug]

I was wondering about the environmental hazards. Not so long ago, ordinary light bulbs were manufactured in many locations all over the world. Vacuum, tungsten inside, so to a layman not so different from vacuum tubes. Probably energy-intensive, but so is all glassware, still made everywhere. OTOH, when LED lighting really took on (I try to forget the miserable energy-savers), production moved immediately to China, India etc. Too labor-intensive or hazardous by current Western standards? Shipping loooong distances is a cost, too.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I was wondering about the environmental hazards. Not so long ago, ordinary light bulbs were manufactured in many locations all over the world. Vacuum, tungsten inside, so to a layman not so different form vacuum tubes.

The difference is that tubes use thoriated tungsten (about 2% thorium oxide IIRC). Thorium is an excellent electron emitter, which is obviously what's needed in a vacuum tube to generate the electron stream on which the devices operate. But it's also radioactive and hazardous both during production and as waste. Incandscent bulbs have tungsten filaments, but the tungsten is not thoriated and whatever alloy they use is close to pure.

Thoriated tungsten used to be used in welding rod. But it's been replaced by one of a few alternative elements (e.g. zirconium, cerium, and lanthanum). Apparently, none of those has the high electron emissivity of thorium, so they're not satisfactory replacements for it in tubes.

[Litterick]

Tube brands and where they are made

In short, a lot of this stuff is Russian. I understand the Chinese factory was closed, probably because of the Chinese energy shortage. JJ in Slovakia is the major manufacturer in the free world. Western Electric is risen from the grave in the USA.

[Gitterbug]

I've understood that the Chinese plant burned down and is supposed to rise from the ashes. 2, 3 or even 4 manufacturers, my vote goes for a solid-state future. Who really cares for those infinitesimal tonal differences? Not the audience, for sure. We? Less and less. Remember when many of us were HiFi freaks wasting a lot of dough on specs rather than on what we heard? Today, we listen to the cellphone or a desktop computer at best.

[EastwoodMike]

From what I can tell, Blues Rock & Metal are more likely to be impacted than Jazz when tubes become short order. Their tones have such a large component of preamp or output tube saturation, transformer sag, compression & note bloom as part of their tone.
With the exception of fusion- these are not attributes I associate with Jazz Guitar. Perhaps some preamp warmth but we seem to be finding alternatives to the 12ax7 default all the time. And plenty of those to share around anyway.

Any Jazzers out there who have OP tubes as part of their tone ? Curious.

EM

[pingu]

I play fairly clean 90 percent of the time
If i turn up somewhere to play with my
superlight Toob rig ....

there’s a Twin sitting there I can use ....
I’m gonna go Twin for sure .....

I’m researching High Voltage
tube pre amps
maybe that’ll do it for me
in theory it should work
Im not needing heavy sounds or
power compression or sag

i just want some nice touch
sensitivity at the front end for
when i wanna get a bit bluesy baby

[pingu]

high tension (voltage) tube pre amps list

Black Star Dept 10
Kingsley
Beekeeper

are there any more out there chaps ?

[Gitterbug]

From what I can tell, Blues Rock & Metal are more likely to be impacted than Jazz when tubes become short order.

EM

Visiting the Quilter owners' FB pages is an eye-opener. Day after day, gigging rock musicians presenting their rigs and saying farewell to tube amps. Quilter knows that gigging musicians are just a fraction of the market and regrets not being a household name yet, but I think the cognoscenti users carry a lot of testimonial power.

[Gitterbug]

Sorry, it's me again, this time parroting. Mikko Kankaanpää, a teacher and practitioner of amp technology, thinks tube preamps are mainly a marketing gimmick. He says the tube mojo and growl come from the power amp. MusicMan's hybrids, with a solid state preamp and tube power amp are a good-sounding example according to him.

[Christian Miller]

My Princeton’s been off for few weeks.