Eb tuning - Do jazz artists use it?

**Hoopskidoodle** · 12-26-2009, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by heavyblues

I am used to Eb tuning on my current guitar...

Just so we're clear, you're talking about Standard tuning a ½ step down, right? I'm assuming that's what you mean... although, you could be talking about an Eb open tuning. If it's the former, I typically tune my guitar that way, i.e. Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Bb, Eb.

I have trouble cleanly barring the first fret in the standard tuning. This is especially true with heavier (and what I consider heavier, must jazz guitarists would consider extra extra light) gauge strings on an arch top guitar. When I need to play in standard tuning, I use a capo.

**Innerurge1** · 12-26-2009, 02:11 PM

Im pretty sure Kurt Rosenwinkel has tuned down a half step for his original, Zhivago (at least for the intro, not sure for the whole song).

**cosmic gumbo** · 12-27-2009, 03:19 AM

I think Les Paul used to tune down to dropped C when he recorded and then sped the recording up to make it the correct pitch and make him sound really fast.

**Sphere** · 12-27-2009, 03:50 PM

I thought George Benson tends to tune down to Eb?
As long as you know what actuall key you're playing in, I don't see an issue. Why on earth would a bandleader fire someone for using an 'illegal' tuning?
To the original poster - if your main concern is to lower the tension of 13s, why not just go down a gauge? You don't need huge strings to play jazz, use what works best for you.

The pure nickel strings were very common all the way through the 60's, till the nickel-plated steel became more popular. They sort of made a comeback last decade or so, because of their vintage appeal, now a lot of manufacturers offer pure nickel wound strings.

**cosmic gumbo** · 12-27-2009, 09:41 PM

I think Michael Hedges got arrested for using an illegal tuning once, but didn't have to do any time, whew! Be careful!

**heavyblues** · 12-30-2009, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I think Michael Hedges got arrested for using an illegal tuning once, but didn't have to do any time, whew! Be careful!

lol.....so since I started this thread, I have decided to keep all my guitars in standard tuning, despite the fact that my jazz strat sounds mean as hell when distorted and all strings whole step down(but that means I cant use 13's on my strat now, and 12's barely work with a strat neck of standard thickness)

**Hoopskidoodle** · 12-30-2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by PaulD

Here's somebody who tunes a Maj 3rd down with really beautiful results. Personally, I think it's great for solo guitar work like this - gives you that deeper bass sound. But as Kevin VanSant (the player on the video) states in one of the comments, it's not better of worse, just a different sound.

Paul

Wow, that sounds great to my ears. I was thinking of tuning down to Db Standard (which suits my voice) but after hearing this, I might bump up to 13s and take her down to C.

**Chev** · 12-31-2009, 08:49 AM

Hi,
since I have played slide for many years I´m used to different tunings even in big band situations where chording is kind of essential.I play 6th,9th,13th, minors and so on by fingering behind the steel, a lot is possible in open tunings.
I would not recommend a dropped tuning to start your jazz with, a lot of transposing on the fly can slow things down. I see no reason to tune to Eb in a learning process,most of the stuff is not about bending notes like SRV(i.e texas swing).
And why use 13´s if it´s too heavy - 12´s give you tone as well.
Good luck!

**eddue** · 03-19-2010, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hoopskidoodle

Wow, that sounds great to my ears. I was thinking of tuning down to Db Standard (which suits my voice) but after hearing this, I might bump up to 13s and take her down to C.

I am new to the forums here and just discovered this thread and found it very interesting for 3 reasons.

1. I am a bass player and just recently started tuning down a whole step, first on one of my uprights and now on electric bass as well. it has really worked out well for me although I sometimes have to think about what I am playing and how to play it in the lowered tuning. It has given me a lot more options and makes playing easier in most keys. I wish I would have thought of a long time ago.

2, I was surprised how many guitarists were against the idea. Transposing is easy on the guitar compared to a piano or organ. I would think it would less of a transition on guitar than bass. Playing the same thing in a slightly different position is what you normally would do when you have to change the key of a song. Isn't that what you normally would do when backing a vocalist or horn?

3. and lastly, I spotted a member from my state here. Hoopskidoodle, are you anywhere near Macomb County? How is that C tuning working out for you?

Eddue

**mattymel** · 03-19-2010, 09:15 PM

there are arguments to be made on both sides...

if you play with horn players, you are going to be playing lots of songs in the keys of Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, etc...
if you are the only chordal player and tuned to Eb, that might mean more opportunities to use the big lush sounding chords using open strings. but yeah, you better start thinking as a horn thinks and getting quick with transposing, or that wont go over very well once any key talk is going on. most horns can think in any of the transposing instruments keys as second nature.

ask jim hall...i know for a fact that he tuned down from time to time with the jimmy giuffre trio. check out "crazy she calls me". i cant confirm if his whole guitar is tuned down, or just the low E, but it is there clear as day during his solo guitar feature...

that being said, its not hard to think down a half step. you just need to get away from those stupid real books! Eb is much easier than thinking a whole step. there have been many players that do this, though many seem to have excelled as solo guitarists. the late, great kenny poole for example. though i am pretty certain he tuned more into the realm of a low C or even B. basically trying to get some george van eps type voicings but on a 6 string.

for me, it seems to make much more sense if i was playing with trumpets and saxes to be tempted into Eb. when im doing solo gigs, i'll just transpose the tune to a better key for guitar. all the real books are geared towards horn player keys. but you guys all knew that already...E A D and G all the way for solo gigs! there IS a reason why there arent many classical solo guitar pieces written in F, Bb, or Eb...and it doesnt have to do with guitarists being lazy.

as far as tone goes, yeah, Eb sounds better to me personally in many ways. if the intonation is right and the truss rod is right, you can tune to whatever you want and it will sound good. if on the other hand you are constantly tuning one guitar to E, then Eb, then D, then C, its going to sound crappy, and you are going to break alot of strings. thats why i keep a few in different tunings...

**eddue** · 03-19-2010, 09:32 PM

Mattymel

Everything you said makes sense. I just can't understand why so many guitarists and bass players have so much trouble tuning down or transposing. I think it might just be a matter of over thinking things.

Do you think anyone would notice if I handed them a guitar tuned a whole step lower and then gave them the chords to a song a written whole step higher?

I think if I told them the differences they might have some problems but if they didn't know they would just play it!

**Hoopskidoodle** · 03-19-2010, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by eddue

3. and lastly, I spotted a member from my state here. Hoopskidoodle, are you anywhere near Macomb County? How is that C tuning working out for you?

Eddue

I live on the other side of town, in Oakland County.

My main guitar is tuned to D standard. It works perfectly for me. I can use, for me, ridiculously thick flatwounds without having to fight against increased string tension.
There are no intonation problems, and if there were, I could easily fix them.

**eddue** · 03-19-2010, 11:23 PM

I also use a D tuning (DGCF) on by basses and thinking abiut trying it on my guitars. I have a Epiphone Broadway and a L5 copy with a bigsby that I will try to tune down next. Right now I am using Thomastiks flatwound 12's. Did you have trouble finding the right strings to use or do you find there are a lot of strings that de-tune well.

Any good jazz clubs in your area?

**randyc** · 03-19-2010, 11:54 PM

Is this EVER going to end

**Dystonian_Mode** · 03-20-2010, 11:43 PM

About the only time I tune to Eb is when I don't have a tuner and just tune up from where the Low E string has slipped to.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-21-2010, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by mattymel

if you play with horn players, you are going to be playing lots of songs in the keys of Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, etc...
if you are the only chordal player and tuned to Eb, that might mean more opportunities to use the big lush sounding chords using open strings...

for me, it seems to make much more sense if i was playing with trumpets and saxes to be tempted into Eb. when im doing solo gigs, i'll just transpose the tune to a better key for guitar. all the real books are geared towards horn player keys. but you guys all knew that already...E A D and G all the way for solo gigs! ...

I respectfully disagree on both of these points.

first, yes, i'm often playing in a "black key" when i play with horn players and such. but tuning down makes those open strings BORING! roots and fifths and such...I'd rather play a song in Bb and use my open E string as a raised 11th--that's cool! I would put this into the category of reasons NOT to tune down.

secondly, when playing solo, i will often change key to make things sit nice on the guitar. but too many open strings kills basslines-- an open string reacts very differently and "blooms" very differently than a fretted note. they can often hinder a good even walking bass, IMHO.

back to my point i tried to make several months ago on this thread, directed to no one in particular...

tune the guitar however you want, you're going to need to be able to transpose anyway. just don't expect me to tune to you, so you can do your big SRV Eb blues garbage.

**JohnW400** · 03-21-2010, 12:00 PM

If you cannot play in Db, Ab and Gb equally as well as you can ib D, G an A you need more time in the shed.

To the poster that mentioned classical guitar as not being written in keys like F, Bb etc, go back and look at some Fernando Sor music. Also some Mel Bay volumes 5, 6 and 7. You will find some classical guitar music transposed to Gb and Db as an excercise.

Regarding solo guitar, yes, I'm sure we've all changed a key so that the tune sit's better on the guitar. A few even drop a D or even down to A. But you should also be able to play that same solo in the original key as well without even thinking about it.

I would even say that part of the reason players went to Eb was to accomodate their singing voice and had nothing to do with string gauge.

So far I haven't heard any convincing reasons about why you should drop the tuning to Eb.

I wonder if this question comes up on violin/viola forums?

Baltar Hornbeek · 03-21-2010, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

just don't expect me to tune to you, so you can do your big SRV Eb blues garbage.

you should be able to play a standard tuned guitar along with someone tuned down to Eb blues.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-21-2010, 01:34 PM

of course. what i'm saying is, that's the way i'm gonna do it--i'm not downtuning (and then going out of tune the rest of the night) to give you a big open Eb chord or so i can do the little open string turnaround while you show off...

i've honestly seen this at blues jams, where it screws up the "strat in a hat" to see me playing root positon Eb's at the sixth and eleventh fret...

**eddue** · 03-21-2010, 02:26 PM

I didn't think reviving this thread would be so controversial (sorry RandyC). I thought it was interesting that, as a bass player, I found detuning to work out great for me. The main reason was that I didn't have to relearn anything. It's playing the same except I now have access to a lower range of notes which works out very well in most keys. As long as it is tuned in fourths I just see minor adjustments that have to be made. For guitarists, the same chord fingering and scales still apply.The open chords may be different but that's why they make capos. It may not be for everyone but it really isn't that complicated.

Baltar Hornbeek · 03-21-2010, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

of course. what i'm saying is, that's the way i'm gonna do it--i'm not downtuning (and then going out of tune the rest of the night) to give you a big open Eb chord or so i can do the little open string turnaround while you show off...

i've honestly seen this at blues jams, where it screws up the "strat in a hat" to see me playing root positon Eb's at the sixth and eleventh fret...

sounds like you need an ego check..

**mr. beaumont** · 03-21-2010, 09:52 PM

most definitely. let's see...

you're a troll with a history of useless and combatative posts.

whew, yep, still got it. thanks for drawing attention to it, didn't want it to get away. i think i'll go look at myself in the mirror now.

Baltar Hornbeek · 03-21-2010, 10:19 PM

just sayin

**mattymel** · 03-21-2010, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I respectfully disagree on both of these points.

first, yes, i'm often playing in a "black key" when i play with horn players and such. but tuning down makes those open strings BORING! roots and fifths and such...I'd rather play a song in Bb and use my open E string as a raised 11th--that's cool! I would put this into the category of reasons NOT to tune down.

tune the guitar however you want, you're going to need to be able to transpose anyway. just don't expect me to tune to you, so you can do your big SRV Eb blues garbage.

#11 in the bass, huh? personally, id never want to hear that when someone is accompanying me. sounds to me like overanalyzing while not listening to how things sound in context. as a tritone sub, maybe i guess...but, if thats what your are going for all the time, and saying hearing roots in chords is "boring"...this sounds kind of forced to me.

this SRV thing is kind of silly comment too. if you cant hear how tuning to Eb changes the tone of a guitar, fine...its not for you, i guess. but dont be a jerk about it. with a snob attitude and closed mindedness like that, i guarantee your I IV V playing isnt going to turn any heads no matter what tuning you are in. i think joe henderson said it best..."SRV...is a Motherfucker"

**mr. beaumont** · 03-21-2010, 10:35 PM

there's two E strings. put the open E on top of a Bb maj type chord. delicious.

i very clearly say in my previous post, directed to no one in particular. you're acting like i attacked you personally. i didn't.

oh, you've heard my I IV V playing? indulge me, please where? at what points does my close mindedness fail to turn heads?

i live in chicago, home of where everyone, for better or worse, plays the blues. i've helped friends host jams as part of the band, and i've had people ask the band to tune down. i'm speaking from my personal experience. we're allowed to do that here.

please go back and read my other posts where i clearly say "tune the guitar however you want, make sure you can transpose and don't expect me to tune to you." i think that's pretty reasonable. if it's not, then i apologize for having an opinion.

lots of attitudes here. don't make me get one.