Eb tuning - Do jazz artists use it?

[BillyC]

1) No

2) No

3) No

4) No

[randyc]

Who could ever have imagined that such a silly topic could ....... (never mind, I think I'll go tune my accordion to B-flat.)

[randyc]

I didn't think reviving this thread would be so controversial (sorry RandyC). I thought it was interesting that, as a bass player, I found detuning to work out great for me. The main reason was that I didn't have to relearn anything. It's playing the same except I now have access to a lower range of notes which works out very well in most keys. As long as it is tuned in fourths I just see minor adjustments that have to be made. For guitarists, the same chord fingering and scales still apply.The open chords may be different but that's why they make capos. It may not be for everyone but it really isn't that complicated.

eddue:

I get how the tuning would benefit a bassist. In fact, I might adopt the idea if I were playing bass with brass (AND if there was a standard-tuned bass right beside me). Miscommunication is common on the internet, LOL.

BUT for guitarists, the idea is impractical, forget the capo. Thanks for setting me straight on your perspective !

cheers,
randyc

[eddue]

No problem!

I just think that tuning is just another tool a musician can use to make music.

[randyc]

Are you Interlochen, perhaps?

[eddue]

No, not interlochen.

[MarkRhodes]

I tuned down to Eb for a long time before getting serious about jazz. The only thing I miss is the ability to bend strings like my favorite blues players (Hendrix, SRV, Johnny Winter.) Of course, when I'm playing jazz tunes, I don't find myself needing such bends, so I miss them less and less. Though there's something *visceral* about bending two notes at a time the way a lot of early rockers did---it ain't sophisticated, but it sure is fun. But I don't think I'll ever go back to it.

[mattymel]

i didnt mean to get ugly. i just think that one of the reasons there is a stigma that jazz guitarists are hard to play without outside of a jazz context is because of attitudes like what i thought i was hearing earlier. sorry if i jumped the gun.

obviously anybody that is asking the whole band to tune to them at a jam session is a novice and should be rightfully put in their place. especially if they are wearing a hat and sequins jacket. no argument there. anybody that was tuning to Eb in the first place should as a number one priority know how to relate to other musicians that arent following suit.

but, i still say there are possible reasons for tuning down. i used to do it when i was playing standards with a trumpet player in a quartet and it worked great for a lot of things. personally, i would rather have those open Ebs, Abs, and Dbs for roots than extensions of chords. they are too low for that to my ear. and it works well for planing chord structures with open strings droning.

for me, it was really the beginning of transposing as a normal way of playing tunes. and im glad i did. i still get together with a piano player once a week and take a tune through all 12 just to stay on it. im not saying i would throw in low e strings every chance i had back in the Eb days. but for ending tunes, and some arrangements it was crucial.

as to the guy that mentioned fernando sor. i am very familiar with a large portion of his music, having studied classical from a young age. of course there are pieces written in F and Bb. though the vast majority are intended as studies for technical development. i honestly cant recall ANY "performance" piece written in those keys. the reason being that they dont lay as well and are not as rich sounding. there is some good stuff. study #18 is one of my favorites from the 20 studies. but that shits HARD.

i guess the point i am trying to make is that if guitar was THE main instrument in jazz early on, i seriously doubt we would be playing so many tunes in Bb and F. we have the trumpets and saxes to thank for that. im not complaining, just saying is all. open strings are a good thing. as much as i like joe pass and all his barre chords, i like to here some villa lobos GUITAR chords sometimes...to each their own.

[mr. beaumont]

i apologize for getting snitty too-- i was already ruffled by dr. hornbeek, who you all know, drives me nuts.

[randyc]

Yeah, you're not in an exclusive category there, Jeff. The man has the sense of humor of a mortician but lacks the propriety of one!

[JohnW400]

as to the guy that mentioned fernando sor. i am very familiar with a large portion of his music, having studied classical from a young age. of course there are pieces written in F and Bb. though the vast majority are intended as studies for technical development. i honestly cant recall ANY "performance" piece written in those keys. the reason being that they dont lay as well and are not as rich sounding. there is some good stuff. study #18 is one of my favorites from the 20 studies. but that shits HARD.

.

I don't think you find many performance pieces written for guitar back then. It wasn't considered a real instrument. Bach didn't write for it although he did some lute pieces. But most of the other famous composers did not write for the instrument at all.

To this day many musicians (non guitar players obviously) do not consider the guitar a real instrument. Tuning to Eb so you can play open chords in horn keys doesn't do anythying to help dispell this idea either. What it tells other musicians it that you don't really know your instrument well enough to funciton with other these other musicians. It's like you need training wheels on your bike, you can't quite ride (play) your bike in the street (in Db with ease)

Quite frankly I really don't care what anybody tunes in. You either know your instrument or you don't and if you don't , the minute they go from Donna Lee in your A, to Take the A train , your Db, it will become apparent

[mattymel]

first of all, bach and fernando sor are from completely different musical periods. bach is baroque and sor would be considered from the classical period. during the baroque period the "modern" guitar had not even been fully developed, so bach would have been an even bigger genius than he was had he the foresight to compose pieces for an instrument that nobody played! WOW. but, as you said, bach DID compose for lute. as did a few other well known composers. and of those pieces, i think you will find almost all were strangely written in what would be the equivalent "guitar keys" that fit that instrument well. as would anybody that actually knows how to write for the instrument they are composing for. seems OBVIOUS!!!

continuing onto sor...there were actually MANY guitarist/composers during the classical period that were well regarded throughout europe of which sor is one of the best. and yes, he also composed a good number of grand sonatas, divertmentos, intro/variations, as well as number of arrangements of popular operas including works by mozart. these were all played as a showcase of the guitar as solo CONCERT INSTRUMENT. the same goes for Giuliani, Carcassi, and a number of others from the same period. All which were virtuoso performers and wrote pieces that laid well on the guitar.

you seem to miss the point. tuning to another pitch to aid arranging a song, (or in the case of playing in small groups with horns) doesnt mean you cant play a barre chord!!! and it doenst mean the guitar isnt a real instrument as you seem to insinuate. if you can play chords that sound as rich in Db without tuning, then you are surely a genius and im sure one day your compositions will be received as such. but as history stands at the moment, the most beautiful and most often played guitar pieces are in the keys of E, A, D, G and those relative minors. thats just a not so mysterious fact that seems to have escaped you.

[Tom Karol]

"... if guitar was THE main instrument in jazz early on, i seriously doubt we would be playing so many tunes in Bb and F. we have the trumpets and saxes to thank for that."

For what it's worth (probably not much) I play with a tenor sax player who, while well versed in Jazz, has previously played in a lot of rock bands. He actually likes playing in E and A. Go figure!

[eddue]

There seems to be 2 different topics going on here. Tuning (or detuning) and playing in different keys. Regardless of which instrument (except maybe harmonicas ) you play and how you decide to tune it, you should be able to play in any key!

Tuning can be a personal preference or limited to an instrument for physical reasons but it shouldn't be a reason not to play in any key.

[JohnW400]

first of all, bach and fernando sor are from completely different musical periods. bach is baroque and sor would be considered from the classical period. during the baroque period the "modern" guitar had not even been fully developed, so bach would have been an even bigger genius than he was had he the foresight to compose pieces for an instrument that nobody played! WOW. but, as you said, bach DID compose for lute. as did a few other well known composers. and of those pieces, i think you will find almost all were strangely written in what would be the equivalent "guitar keys" that fit that instrument well. as would anybody that actually knows how to write for the instrument they are composing for. seems OBVIOUS!!!

continuing onto sor...there were actually MANY guitarist/composers during the classical period that were well regarded throughout europe of which sor is one of the best. and yes, he also composed a good number of grand sonatas, divertmentos, intro/variations, as well as number of arrangements of popular operas including works by mozart. these were all played as a showcase of the guitar as solo CONCERT INSTRUMENT. the same goes for Giuliani, Carcassi, and a number of others from the same period. All which were virtuoso performers and wrote pieces that laid well on the guitar.

you seem to miss the point. tuning to another pitch to aid arranging a song, (or in the case of playing in small groups with horns) doesnt mean you cant play a barre chord!!! and it doenst mean the guitar isnt a real instrument as you seem to insinuate. if you can play chords that sound as rich in Db without tuning, then you are surely a genius and im sure one day your compositions will be received as such. but as history stands at the moment, the most beautiful and most often played guitar pieces are in the keys of E, A, D, G and those relative minors. thats just a not so mysterious fact that seems to have escaped you.

What? All you read was my first sentence and took offence?. Did you read the rest or just have a knee jerk reaction and start typing away??

I'm not missing the point. Perhaps we're confusing two different things here

If you have to tune to Eb in order to be able to comfortably play in the flat keys then like I said before. You need more time in the shed. Despite Sor, Tarregra, Villa Lobos , Lauro, etc. composing great works, how many of them TUNED THEIR GUITAR to Eb so that they could play in the orchestra? I have seen dropped D, G and lowering the 3rd to F#. Enlighten me. Anybody in the classical world tune to Eb?

As far as composers, I think the general public knows names like Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Ravel, Debussey Wagner Stravinsky and yes Bach, more readilly that Sor, Tarrega or Guilliani. Take your pick. (They all appear under the heading CLASSICAL music regardless of what period.)

I have NO PROBLEM changing the key to accomdate the guitar. I have NO PROBLEM dropping the Low E to any note you like.

I have a problem with players that tune their instrument to Eb so they can play in the horn keys. It's silly. That's what this whole thread is about. All my past posts on this topic have to do with that. It has nothing to do with composing in Db. It has nothing to do with transposing a tune.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

i apologize for getting snitty too-- i was already ruffled by dr. hornbeek, who you all know, drives me nuts.

I'm sorry man, you too Randy

[randyc]

Just sent you a PM -

randyc

[mr. beaumont]

I'm sorry man, you too Randy

you know, it's cool. life's too short, right? s'all good.

[mattymel]

villa lobos, sor, brouwer, etc wouldnt need to tune to Eb because they wrote music suited to the guitar. this seems a point you are missing BIG. evidently jim hall needed to go back to the shed when he was playing with the jimmy giuffre trio then? thats all the evidence i need to back myself up. a group that actually takes time to arrange their songs instead of reading stupid changes out of a real book might have a more open mind on the matter...kurt rosenwinkel too...hack?

i dont have any problem playing in ANY key. regardless of if i choose to tune to Eb or not. its all the same to me. all i am saying, is when i did choose to do so, it did seem to lend itself well in the context of playing with a transposing horn player becasue they highly favor playing tunes in flat keys.

it opened up a few more chances to get some voicings that sounded more interesting than the same old drop2/3/4 chords every jazz guitar player on earth plays over and over again. those things are played out. nobody here is talking about using capos to play jazz. sorry the idea is so revolutionary to you.

[randyc]

Arguments on the internet are SO interesting. Nothing need be said in real time - we can research (for hours) to support an esoteric point ... not on this mega-thread, of course

I tried to tune my accordion down to B-flat - didn't work but the dulcimer was OK with it. Now if I could only find a brass ensemble that wants to do Doc Watson, I'd be good-to-go !

cheers,
randyc

[Archie]

Here ya go!

[JohnW400]

villa lobos, sor, brouwer, etc wouldnt need to tune to Eb because they wrote music suited to the guitar. this seems a point you are missing BIG. evidently jim hall needed to go back to the shed when he was playing with the jimmy giuffre trio then? thats all the evidence i need to back myself up. a group that actually takes time to arrange their songs instead of reading stupid changes out of a real book might have a more open mind on the matter...kurt rosenwinkel too...hack?

Would thay have tuned to Eb so that they could play in a group context where the piece was in Ab to avoid the flat's and use open strings? I don't see the relevance what key you compose in to the issue of tuning to Eb to avoid the horn keys. If you're playing solo guitar, pick whatever key you like. when you play in a group , well, you have to play in whatever key the group decides. As far as Kurt, I haven't a clue what he tunes to. But i do know that it's not because he has trouble in the horn keys. Again. I'm not talking about composing. I'm talking about tuning down to facilitate playing in sweet positions, the "white keys" so to speak.

i dont have any problem playing in ANY key. regardless of if i choose to tune to Eb or not. its all the same to me. all i am saying, is when i did choose to do so, it did seem to lend itself well in the context of playing with a transposing horn player becasue they highly favor playing tunes in flat keys.?

So why did you tune to Eb? To use open strings? But after a while doesn't always using the same type , open string chords become that "old sound" that you complain about below?

it opened up a few more chances to get some voicings that sounded more interesting than the same old drop2/3/4 chords every jazz guitar player on earth plays over and over again. those things are played out. nobody here is talking about using capos to play jazz. sorry the idea is so revolutionary to you.

I'm sorry you've run out of voicings to play to keep the music interesting. I can see how you'd get bored only playing drop 2/3/4 voicings. Perhaps you should look into using quartal and quintal voicings, panditonics, triads over non chord tone bass notes, tone clusters, etc.


The thing about the capo....where did that come from? I don't recall seeing that in any of my posts.


But quite frankly, Play in whatever ever tuning you like. It really dosen't matter to me. Whatever suits you is fine.

[brad4d8]

Once a month I participate in a folk jam, with sometimes as many as 15-20 instrumentalists and some singers who don't play. I've been really amazed at some of the fairly accomplished guitarists who can't play a simple tune (I-IV-V with some related minors) with changes for "C" when a singer needs it in "G," for example. I regularly "forget" my capo, so when a singer needs the "C" chords capoed on three, I get to practice my Eb skills.
Brad

[mattymel]

you seem to miss the point. taking advantage of open strings to get more lush chord voicings doesnt mean you DONT know how to play the guitar. it means you know how to take advantage of some of the best sounds the instrument has to offer. someone should ask jim hall why he tuned down for some stuff with the jimmy giuffre trio...i think he might have some surprising opinions on the subject.

i think villa lobos, and brouwer wouldnt be interested in the sounds that more traditional classical guitarists hashed out. they were more interested in expanding the the palette and taking advantage of the intrinsic harmonies that lay in the guitar. its a means to an end...more important to the more creative players/composers than the rules that say you should tune one way or the other.

you are never going to sound like a sax or a piano, so you might as well make due with what you have. and if someone chooses to take advantage of all possible options, like rosenwinkel and his use of alternate tunings, i'll be very interested to hear what he comes up with. it will always be more interesting sounding than another guitarist that uses all the same jazz school chords you hear every day. just because someone gets bored with those doesnt mean they have hit a wall. it means they are searching. some guitarist do that via tunings, others by expanding to different non traditional instruments, like breau. if they master whatever tuning they are in enough to play within any group context, is that cheating?

im quite familiar with all the harmonies you spoke of. from the sounds of it, likely you arent as familiar with the ones i am talking about. but hey... enjoy your guitar chord book!

[JohnW400]

you seem to miss the point. taking advantage of open strings to get more lush chord voicings doesnt mean you DONT know how to play the guitar. it means you know how to take advantage of some of the best sounds the instrument has to offer. someone should ask jim hall why he tuned down for some stuff with the jimmy giuffre trio...i think he might have some surprising opinions on the subject.

i think villa lobos, and brouwer wouldnt be interested in the sounds that more traditional classical guitarists hashed out. they were more interested in expanding the the palette and taking advantage of the intrinsic harmonies that lay in the guitar. its a means to an end...more important to more creative than the rules that say you should tune one way or the other.

you are never going to sound like a sax or a piano, so you might as well make due with what you have. and if someone chooses to take advantage of all possible options, like rosenwinkel and his use of alternate tunings, i'll be very interested to hear what he comes up with. it will always be more interesting sounding than another guitarist that uses all the same jazz school chords you hear every day. just because someone gets bored with those doesnt mean they have hit a wall. it means they are searching. some guitarist do that via tunings, others by expanding to different instruments, like breau. if they master whatever tuning they are in enough to play within any group context, is that cheating?

im quite familiar with all the harmonies you spoke of. from the sounds of it, likely you arent as familiar with the ones i am talking about. but hey... enjoy your guitar chord book!

No I'm not missing the point . It's that you still haven't answered any of my questions. You seem to think lush chords only exist with open strings.

I think that if you were as familiar with all the concepts I mention you say you are then you would have plenty of choices to keep your stuff fresh.

Yeah, I'll keep my chord book , thanks, because I'm sure it has chords in it that you haven't even found yet.


Listen, do me a favor. Don't respond. I'm out of here.