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I am sure most (if not all) of you know more about selling prices than I do. I have found a box store that can order me a New L-5 CES in the Burbonburst finish. Cost to him...$10,999.99. Cost to me $9500.00. The way I figure it, thats only about 12-13% off his price. That does not seem to jive with what I have read on the forum from other members purchases. Seems high to me....how far can I negotiate price? He wanted 25% depost with a 10-12 month delivery time. I was thinking to offer more deposit up front, but at a lesser price. Anyone care to weight in on past experiences or have suggestions as to what to offer?
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09-01-2018 09:04 AM
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Oh and a florentine cut will be another $300.00...that does seem reasonable.
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What? He's taking a $1,500.00 loss? I'm guessing that the cost to him is around $7,000 - $8,000
Originally Posted by Mickey
I have consistently paid 70% to $80 of retail price on new Gibson carved tops.
There are folks on here with much more Gibson collecting experience than me, but I have observed that prices can be firmer when the guitar has not yet been made, and more flexible when the guitar is sitting in inventory tying up funds. OTOH - since he is almost guaranteed that it won't sit in inventory because he has a buyer, he should be willing to negotiate with more flexibility.
In other words, in this situation you can do business with anyone, so why him? It's always a good practice to get three firm bids and then play them off each other. (at least two bids)
1. First get the best price from each
2. Then tell them "well I really want to business with you but I need the price to be a little less..."Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 09-01-2018 at 10:39 AM.
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I don't think I'd be willing to place a custom order with a 12 month delivery time with a company that was in the midst of a bankruptcy reorganization. My concerns my well be completely unwarranted but there's really no way to know what Gibson's wood supply will be like, what level of craftsman will be be there to work on the guitar or what quality of supervision will be in place. That's way more risk that I'd be willing to take given the price.
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See that's what I thought. Keep in mind it is a custom color.....but it can't be worth that much. My problem is,
so many box stores don't seem interested enough to call Gibson. That's 2 box stores that have quoted me that price. I feel that they are sticking it to me because of the Custom Color. I have tried GC, MF, TMZ,...any other ideas out there for this specific situation?
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What happened to the 4-6 months deal?
Anyway, have you tried Wildwood Guitars, near Boulder, CO? I would trust them, even though a little pricey. I've bought three VERY nice Gibby's from them. They get great colors and woods from Gibson - tell them that you insist on both! I worked with Troy.
Also, The Guitar Sanctuary in McKinney TX might be able to help. Ask for Shane Frame.
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Many dealers have had less than stellar support from Gibson and probably not too interested in a Custom order. If I was ordering it - TMZ would be my choice. I have purchased many guitars from them and they always give me a great price regardless of brand. I just purchased 2 Custom Shop Martins and the price was great - and they even provided further discount for the bundle. Originally Posted by Mickey
But, as Jim Soloway noted - do you really want to take a chance with a 12 month lead time from a company in turmoil ?
But if you are set on a Florentine Custom order L5CES with a custom color - don’t expect much of a discount. However, if the guitar was laying around in dealer stock for a year- then you could negotiate a great deal.
Mickey - Ive read all your posts - and based on your desires just pull the trigger and order it. Your plan B will be a nightmare with its own lead time and logistic issues.
Wishing you a speedy recovery. Follow your dreams - anything less will be unfulfilling and you will be back to square one.
Just my opinion.
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If you order from Wildwood or TMZ and Gibson folds (not too likely) or GC folds (this could happen) you will be entitled to your deposit back (absent some contract that shifts the risk of loss to you). I think Wildwood and TMZ will survive even if Gibson falls.
You are not going to get a great deal on this guitar. It is a custom guitar that would be hard for Gibson or the retailer to sell if you backed out. Get 3 bids. Go with the best one, all things considered. Then all you will have to do is hurry up and wait.
Good Luck!
PS I would want to keep my deposit as low as possible to mitigate my risk.
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Gibson Guitar - guitar division only - should have no trouble surviving. I'm sure they'll have some bumps internally. I would think the worst case scenario here is that it might take a little longer than promised, but that's PURE speculation with no reason to say so. Insofar as I am aware the Nashville Custom Shop is alive and well and cranking out fancy ass Les Pauls and a few archtops, like usual.
All those electronics businesses? Not so much.
If the prestige dealers named herein aren't too worried, I wouldn't be either.
Just my two cents.
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Custom requirements and aggressive price negotiation are not typical bedfellows.
You're paying a huge premium for a color and a cutaway. And that's fine. I just think someone needs to keep saying it, since most here are egging you on.
(Probably irrelevant in both cases since we all tend to do what we want to do anyway)
I bought a brand new but unsold 2016 Wes L-5 for $5,000 less than one year ago. Yes, that was a really lucky deal, but it's literally half the price you're considering, for practically the same instrument.
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So this is what Ive learned since my last post. Evidently, Gibson does things similar to the auto companies. I am told that the 2018 model year wraps up in August. Early Sept will decide about any model changes, colors, etc etc. As far as TMZ goes...I am still negotiating, but they are the ones who gave me the prices i mentioned earlier. Based on what you guys say, I am disappointed in those prices. I guess I have to figure out how to negotiate a lower price with them.
As far as the Gibson transition is concerned, I realize that they have interests that are money losers.....but somehow, I can't imagine them no longer making L-5s. They are just too popular....sort of like Les Paul's. Anyway I am comfortable with that risk...I will take the advice given and offer the least deposit I can. I feel sure that these financial trials Gibson is going thru will instill in them the importance of protecting the facets of their business that is actually profitable. My last contact thru Wildwood is going to call then after labor day and get back with me....I will keep you guys posted...and NO...none of their biggest customers have expressed any caution or skepticism at all regarding the custom shop.
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P.S.....giving up on Florentine cutaway....trying top make it easier for them....and me.
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I'm a huge fan of newer Gibsons. That said,unless you have deep pockets,pass on buying new. The market is weak for archtop guitars,and you will not recover your initial investment.
Also there are many great choices available from great luthiers other than Gibson as well. Both new and used!
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I am surprised you even got a discount on a custom order. As far as I know, custom orders attract the full list price. 15% discount off MAP is the standard discount you get from any Gibson dealer. If you want better than that you got to work harder and offer to pay cash and waive return privileges. Or else know the dealer very very well or have given him lots of business over the years. Maybe some of you can get 25% or more off MAP but I am not such a good haggler. 18% was the best discount I ever got off the MAP of a Gibson archtop new.
I won't be so hung up on Bourbon Burst; if you want a new Crimson Custom L-5CES right now, buy what you can examine right before your eyes before you part with your money. I won't go the custom order route because you never know what you are going to get.
I guess you are really looking for this one sold by The Music Zoo not long ago:
You should talk to The Music Zoo and ask them what they can do for you. But I would seriously consider that one from the MF Private Reserve available on the 11th September 2018. You have 48 hours to decide if you want to keep it. What is Bourbon Burst but the current 3-tone Antique Sunburst with more cherry and less black-brown? Buy what you can see right before your eyes and handle instead of having money tied up on an unknown.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 09-01-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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For $300. dollars?? This makes no sense to me. If your going to order a guitar from Gibson at very little discount, and the wait time get EXACTLY what you want. Originally Posted by Mickey
There are lots of Gibson dealers keep shopping.
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I think giving up on the florentine is a wise choice for resale, even though that's not the motivation here.
OTOH that guitar above is sensational.
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The difficulty does not lie in Bourbon Burst; the difficulty lies in not knowing what billet of maple will be chosen for your custom order. The spruce top will be rather standard Gibson archtop Sitka spruce; the flame of the maple is highly varied. Who is going to pick it out for you? If you're lucky, you get a nice fiddleback with lots of tendrils of flame; if you are not so lucky, you get some mismatched billet with uneven flames and mineral flecks which just happens to be ready at hand.
You want something that looks like this:
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Well that's true. Originally Posted by rpguitar
But I understand Mickey. Special sunbursts are a good idea IMO, they look unique and beautiful. There are so many vintage sunburst, naturals, and red ones out there....
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Florentine cutaways look so cool (I have a 1966 version). For me that would justify a custom order more than a custom color. If I was having to pay a high price and wait a long time, I would go for exactly what I originally desired. In your case that would be custom color and Florentine cutaway.
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No there aren't......because the old Gibson cancelled a lot of the old dealers........And that was before the current reorganization. Originally Posted by skiboyny
And if the OP got the same price from 2 different dealers, which he says he did, but still feels like he's getting 'stuck' which he also said he feels, then maybe it's 'pause and reflect ' time.
I have to agree that Gibson will probably always be building L-5's, but they may not necessarily be building custom L-5's, or L-5's with any custom options.
And then comes the delivery time frame - -is 12 months 12 months, or is it ' tentative ' ?
Sorry, but I made a living dealing with keeping delivery promises and some times - much less without reorganizations -what can go wrong will.
Best of luck.
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Gibsons reorganization has much more to do with other companies that were purchased that were not profitable. The guitar business has been holding its own. I highly doubt that suddenly they would be using crappy wood on a flagship model. I think I would feel as comfortable now ordering a custom build as any other time period. (there is some mystery to it at any point in time) I don't think the lag time would be any worse either. They build some nice stuff. That guitar company won't be belly up anytime soon. All depends on how bad you want it.
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Does it have to be a Gibson brand Guitar?
Have you looked at Heritage Guitars?
Heritage Guitars
The company was started when Gibson moved from Kalamazoo to Memphis some of the old Gibson luthiers did not want to move so they leased the old Gibson factory and started Heritage. Very nice guitars,
Also there is Collings Guitar:
Collings | Archtop Jazz Guitars
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
The difficulty does not lie in Bourbon Burst; the difficulty lies in not knowing what billet of maple will be chosen for your custom order. The spruce top will be rather standard Gibson archtop Sitka spruce; the flame of the maple is highly varied. Who is going to pick it out for you? If you're lucky, you get a nice fiddleback with lots of tendrils of flame; if you are not so lucky, you get some mismatched billet with uneven flames and mineral flecks which just happens to be ready at hand.
You want something that looks like this:
TMZ and Wildwood tend to get 'em right. GC and MF not so much.
BUT - you can select your wood - for an up-charge of course.
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There are essentially five Gibson Custom Shop dealers I know who have any leeway with Gibson: in no particular order viz. Chicago Music Exchange, The Music Zoo, Musician's Friend Private Reserve, Sweetwater, Wildwood Guitars, (House of Guitars, Cream City Music deal mainly in Les Paul Historics and ES semi-hollows. No interest in archtops but I could be wrong. Try HoG.)
If you do go into this, make sure you hammer it out with your chosen Gibson dealer. Any rights of return for a full refund, not in-store credit, no forfeiture of deposit, no restocking fee should the workmanship be shoddy or unsatisfactory in any way? Only then will I take the punt and wait 12 months for it.
The thrill of owning a new guitar lasts about six months. After you have played it a bit, you will begin to wish that you had bought a used guitar instead and saved yourself the hefty outlay of buying it new. But hey, if nobody bought anything new, where would a poor sod like me get to buy it used?
Here's another thought: The Music Zoo has record of to whom it sold that L-5CES Florentine Bourbon Burst. People sometimes give up and wish to sell their guitar on. They need a little push. Ask The Music Zoo to negotiate on your behalf. You may get exactly what you want at a used price with no waitIing, the owner finds a buyer and everybody goes home happy.
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There are 9 online Gibson dealers and at least 30 shops that don't sell online. One of them will give him a fair price and the service he's looking for.
Originally Posted by Dennis D
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