Gibson L-5 CES Pricing

[Jim Soloway]

No disrespect intended,you have a understandable bias towards Gibson from what I remember of some of your posts. I don't think you would promote ordering a guitar from them under ideal conditions let alone current state. I get that but there is always risk involved with a custom order. An unknown if you will. Even though your story did not go well, there are many many stories that did. How about some positive JU JU for this guys dream?

I have both good and bad experiences with Gibson. I had one very bad one but I've owned about 10 of them and grew up with an ES125. They are certainly not my favorite company but that has nothing to do with my warnings in this one. My concerns come from my 12 years in the custom guitar business, ownership in another business that was a creditor to a few companies that went into bankruptcy and most of all being married for 25 years to a lawyer who was in the "give us the money back" side of bankruptcy law. Enough of you will give him positive Ju Ju without any help from me. Now the question is will you also be there for him if it somehow goes wrong in the end?

[Jazzstdnt]

I don't stay up on this day to day but the latest news I was able to find without digging all day was from July 23 saying that Blackstone's lending unit was pushing Gibson to make a broader search for potential buyers.

Is the company out of bankruptcy yet? Has KKR's ownership been approved? Has KKR said that they're keeping the company long term? Have the terms of bankruptcy been accepted by the court? If the answers to those questions are still no then I think caution, uncertainty and doubt are reasonable attitudes.

Gibson’s Sales Process Comes Under Fire - WSJ

Whew! For a minute there I thought that the article was going to say something negative about guitar making. Good thing it didn't.

It's just more of the "Henry is a jerk" storytelling. So be it. Do you know how many great, even breathtaking guitars Gibson has made while Henry was in the state of being a jerk?

[Jim Soloway]

Whew! For a minute there I thought that the article was going to say something negative about guitar making. Good thing it didn't.

It's just more of the "Henry is a jerk" storytelling. So be it. Do you know how many great, even breathtaking guitars Gibson has made while Henry was in the state of being a jerk?

Which has absolutely nothing to do with corporate finance or bankruptcy law. This is not about guitars. It about huge powerful companies like Blackstone and KKR fighting over what's owed to them.

[skiboyny]

Here is the thing. Mickey wrote in and had already decided exactly what he wanted. He asked what the quickest and least expensive way for him to do it was. He has already stated that he is comfortable enough with the "Gibson situation" There are a host of problems that "could" occur when you custom order ANY guitar. He's been warned by people that are more mindful of that and yet none of them, you and myself included have the passion or want that he does. That often trumps more practical decisions. No one needs a $10000. guitar. It in itself is not practical. Yet many of us here have more than that into guitars. I can only offer Mickey any experience I have in achieving his dream. I can wish him the very best of luck but I cannot take responsibility for his decision. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose but if you don't play you always lose!

I have both good and bad experiences with Gibson. I had one very bad one but I've owned about 10 of them and grew up with an ES125. They are certainly not my favorite company but that has nothing to do with my warnings in this one. My concerns come from my 12 years in the custom guitar business, ownership in another business that was a creditor to a few companies that went into bankruptcy and most of all being married for 25 years to a lawyer who was in the "give us the money back" side of bankruptcy law. Enough of you will give him positive Ju Ju without any help from me. Now the question is will you also be there for him if it somehow goes wrong in the end?

[Jazzstdnt]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with corporate finance or bankruptcy law. This is not about guitars. It about huge powerful companies like Blackstone and KKR fighting over what's owed to them.

So? It seems crystal clear that ALL parties involved are motivated to keep the guitars coming.

[vinnyv1k]

I clearly see both sides of this. Yes Gibson is in turmoil right now. I still say your deposit with TMZ has zero risk.
They are a stand up Music store and a huge Gibson dealer.
I have always been a no guts no glory type of guy. Mickey start your engine and punch it.

on a side note....TMZ has a gorgeous 2017 honey burst L5CT with a BJB and Super 400 inlays right now if any one is interested.

Steve, looks like your kind of axe my friend. Nicer than that lemon burst they had IMO. TMZ gets some nice one offs.

[Dennis D]

So? It seems crystal clear that ALL parties involved are motivated to keep the guitars coming.

Not necessarily - - Gibson may very well want to keep the guitars coming, but the only thing KKR and the rest want to keep coming is the money.

[Jazzstdnt]

Not necessarily - - Gibson may very well want to keep the guitars coming, but the only thing KKR and the rest want to keep coming is the money.

Yep and they're willing to keep floating them too, per WSJ the article.

How would KKR "get the money" if Gibson Guitar suddenly stopped being Gibson Guitar? Not pretty.

[Dennis D]

Yep and they're willing to keep floating them too, per WSJ the article.

How would KKR "get the money" if Gibson Guitar suddenly stopped being Gibson Guitar? Not pretty.

I agree it wouldn't be pretty if Gibson guitar suddenly stopped being Gibson Guitar, but I'd bet it wouldn't be the first time KKR liquidated all of a company's assets.
I am sure part of their audit is examining that very possibility, i.e. what Gibson is worth as is, and what it's worth sold off in pieces.

[QAman]

I clearly see both sides of this. Yes Gibson is in turmoil right now. I still say your deposit with TMZ has zero risk.
They are a stand up Music store and a huge Gibson dealer.
I have always been a no guts no glory type of guy. Mickey start your engine and punch it.

on a side note....TMZ has a gorgeous 2017 honey burst L5CT with a BJB and Super 400 inlays right now if any one is interested.

Steve, looks like your kind of axe my friend. Nicer than that lemon burst they had IMO. TMZ gets some nice one offs.

Vinny,
I will check out the L5CT - it looks real nice. According to Garett it was a custom order and the guy brought it back a few months later and just wants to sell it.
It’s in unplayed condition . These things happen all the time. My Lemonburst Legrand is a fantastic guitar. I had my eye on it for over a year , and I finally picked it up at a great price - it’s a long story.

[Mickey]

Whew! Well, Ya know what they say....fortune favors the brave. I'm calling Garett first thing Tuesday Morn. Here's the way I look at it....we've all made bad or risky investments before....that's how we all got to be so Cheery Irregardless of debt and ownership issues.....if they are not going to make them right, they may as well quit anyway. I'm calling in faith.

[Dennis D]

Whew! Well, Ya know what they say....fortune favors the brave. I'm calling Garett first thing Tuesday Morn. Here's the way I look at it....we've all made bad or risky investments before....that's how we all got to be so Cheery Irregardless of debt and ownership issues.....if they are not going to make them right, they may as well quit anyway. I'm calling in faith.

Good luck with the guitar Mickey, and all the best wishes that you win the health battle too !

[Jazzstdnt]

I agree it wouldn't be pretty if Gibson guitar suddenly stopped being Gibson Guitar, but I'd bet it wouldn't be the first time KKR liquidated all of a company's assets.
I am sure part of their audit is examining that very possibility, i.e. what Gibson is worth as is, and what it's worth sold off in pieces.

Well it's worth over $400M according to the article. One article this year mentioned $1B in guitar sales in 2017, I seem to remember.

Liquidating would get KKR proceeds from some factory buildings, billets of wood, fret wire, sheets of abalone, mother of pearl, pick-guard material, binding plastic, paint and lacquer. Plus saws, hammers, screwdrivers, paint guns, vapor masks, workbenches, CNC machines. All told less than $25M I'm guessing.

And then patents too?

Still, a fraction of $400M. What would you do if you were they?

[QAman]

Whew! Well, Ya know what they say....fortune favors the brave. I'm calling Garett first thing Tuesday Morn. Here's the way I look at it....we've all made bad or risky investments before....that's how we all got to be so Cheery Irregardless of debt and ownership issues.....if they are not going to make them right, they may as well quit anyway. I'm calling in faith.

Mickey,
Follow your dreams and keep the faith. Gibson Custom will build you a gorgeous instrument - and TMZ will stand behind it.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Vinny,
I will check out the L5CT - it looks real nice. According to Garett it was a custom order and the guy brought it back a few months later and just wants to sell it.
It’s in unplayed condition . These things happen all the time. My Lemonburst Legrand is a fantastic guitar. I had my eye on it for over a year , and I finally picked it up at a great price - it’s a long story.

In the pics it seems awfully red for a honey burst. Also, the burst looks very uneven with very thin pigment in the bass side lower bout. It may just be the pics, but aesthetically it seems a little off to me.

[QAman]

In the pics it seems awfully red for a honey burst. Also, the burst looks very uneven with very thin pigment in the bass side lower bout. It may just be the pics, but aesthetically it seems a little off to me.

Yeah - I agree , but it may just be lighting. I will check it out soon.

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[Jazzstdnt]

In the pics it seems awfully red for a honey burst. Also, the burst looks very uneven with very thin pigment in the bass side lower bout. It may just be the pics, but aesthetically it seems a little off to me.

From TMZ? You're the guy? I remember it well. Pics please!

[rio]

Sorry, but that is just purely made-up, speculative, talking to yourself BS. If it were true this would be one of the last to be made and its value would skyrocket sooner rather than later.

So hurry everybody!!! Order your L5 today, it may the last of the Mohicans and will be priceless soon!

Yes, it is speculation. Did you foresee the es175 being discontinued? That guitar is arguably more iconic than the L5 and a wider customer base probably bought that model than the L5 as well. My point was just to say that comparing the L5 to the Les Paul isn’t good to do if the OP is using the fact that they are both iconic to think that the L5 will remain in production. With the financial problems the company is having we have no idea what they will choose to cut - it sure won’t be the Les Paul that’s cut but archtops are not making them serious money anymore and since the ES175 has been cut it isn’t exactly a stretch to think that other models might not be around forever either.

And to be clear I am not saying whether he should get one or not. It is clearly in response to the text I quoted. Did you misunderstand or are just having a bad day and needed to vent?


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[ThatRhythmMan]

From TMZ? You're the guy? I remember it well. Pics please!

I’m not sure who that guy is, but here is the guitar in question.

[skiboyny]

Yes, it is speculation. Did you foresee the es175 being discontinued? That guitar is arguably more iconic than the L5 and a wider customer base probably bought that model than the L5 as well.
And to be clear I am not saying whether he should get one or not. It is clearly in response to the text I quoted. Did you misunderstand or are just having a bad day and needed to vent?

ES-175 will be produced again. Discontinued is a strong statement. "Not in this years offerings" is much more appropriate.

[Jim Soloway]

Well it's worth over $400M according to the article. One article this year mentioned $1B in guitar sales in 2017, I seem to remember.

Liquidating would get KKR proceeds from some factory buildings, billets of wood, fret wire, sheets of abalone, mother of pearl, pick-guard material, binding plastic, paint and lacquer. Plus saws, hammers, screwdrivers, paint guns, vapor masks, workbenches, CNC machines. All told less than $25M I'm guessing.

And then patents too?

Still, a fraction of $400M. What would you do if you were they?

The most valuable thing they own is almost certainly the Gibson name and logo. That's worth many times the physical inventory. They also own the Epiphone name and logo, another valuable property. Some of the model names (especially the Les Paul) are also valuable. There will probably be a Gibson Guitar company for a very long time but it may or may not not bear much resemblance to what we have traditionally thought of as Gibson Guitars.

[vinnyv1k]

Steve, when you see Garrett tell him I am standing by for a smoking deal on the honey burst L5CT. He hasn’t thrown me a bone for awhile now. Yes I negotiated with Garrett for months on that lemon burst. He drew a line in the sand with me on that one so I cut the rope. I am glad you got it. That is a special LeGrande for sure. I hope you really love it my friend.

[QAman]

Steve, when you see Garrett tell him I am standing by for a smoking deal on the honey burst L5CT. He hasn’t thrown me a bone for awhile now. Yes I negotiated with Garrett for months on that lemon burst. He drew a line in the sand with me on that one so I cut the rope. I am glad you got it. That is a special LeGrande for sure. I hope you really love it my friend.

Vinny,
Garrett drew the same line with me, so dont feel bad , he did his best and the bottomline price was still really good for a brand new one - off Legrand. The guitar in-hand is just stunning!





So heres the story - The guitar was eventually sold at nearly full asking price to a collector. He had the guitar about 6 months and traded it back in on something else at TMZ. TMZ then posted it for sale in high 8k range and it sold quickly to a wealthy collector in Colorado who bought it for his son. His son then fell in love with an old D'Angelico from Gruhns. The Legrand was then posted on Reverb , and that same day I spotted it and bought it. I cannot disclose my purchase price in this post - but lets just say it was a gift. The guy got such a great deal on the DA, that he passed along his blessing to me. We spoke on the phone for an hour and I told him how I really wanted that guitar - it was a win win. The guitar is in absolute mint unplayed condition - not a scratch. One day I will sell it and pass along a great deal.

I will tell Garrett he owes you one. That L5CT is a very rare custom build and really gorgeous Vinny - I think it needs to head west.

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[Jazzstdnt]

That guitar is arguably more iconic than the L5 and a wider customer base probably bought that model than the L5 as well.

but archtops are not making them serious money anymore and since the ES175 has been cut it isn’t exactly a stretch to think that other models might not be around forever either.

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No, actually it's not. It came along later. The "L" in L5 stands for Lloyd Loar. That's about as iconic as it gets, save for Les Paul.

The ES175 is a relatively homely thing and now has too much price point competition from Asia. The L5 and Super 400 are the icons for Gibson now. Nobody will pay that much for an Asian instrument, OK?

Archtops never made them serious money, as has been stated a thousand times. They are all "limited run" comparatively speaking.

[Jazzstdnt]

I’m not sure who that guy is, but here is the guitar in question.

I think I was thinking of a more yellow Lemonburst LeGrand. Different guitar probably. Sorry.


lemonburst legrand - Google Search