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OK in the last couple years you guys know I have been on a Gibson buying spree. I live in Ca. with perfect weather and humidity.....this is what I have bought:
2013 Tal Farlow VS (BooBoo)
2014 Tal Farlow VB
2014 L5 Wes Black
2014 Byrdland VS
2014 L4CES VS
2014 Super 400
2015 L5 Wes wine
Everyone of these guitars has done the exact same thing on the necks. Walnut laminate strip shrinkage. In fact the 2014 Tal was so bad Gibson refinished the neck.
Checking on the neck binding edge and some random binding nib checks.
Checking on the neck joint.
I also returned a 2015 L5 and Tal Farlow with extreme tail rises.
Yes they all play and sound great but when you are paying $7K for brand new and a year later this is happening it is a bit uncool. It is not just me as I am seeing this everywhere on these years. Green wood is my evaluation.
My older Gibby's not a single finish issue. The heel and nib checks no biggie but when the walnut strips shrink they feel rough on the hand.
When Jimmy D was making my NYer I wanted a 5 piece neck. He wouldn't do it. He said you will be sorry down the road. The older I get the more I respect Jimmy as the true master. He did not like binding either.
I am not blaming Gibson. I believe it is the unavailability of seasoned dry wood. I must concede to the claims of old growth wood. Marco and JZ I now believe are correct on this and I was wrong.
Oh no another Gibson thread.......Mark please don't ban me :-).
All I am saying is buyer beware in these years, just like the 2011 Gibby's with the laminate fretboards that were so stiff that the trussrods did not work.
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04-30-2017 03:53 PM
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Vinny,
There is no doubt in my mind that old wood and old magnets make a difference, not to mention the differing building techniques that Gibson has employed over the years.
To an extent taste plays a role. The older, more lightly built Gibsons have a different sound than the newer, more stoutly built examples of the same model. The older magnets found in the pre T-Top PUPS have a certain chime that I hear in no modern PUP. But old guitars can need work. They need neckwork often (frets, nuts, neck sets, board leveling etc.) and sometimes need electronic work (solders fixed, pots replaced, etc.) or repairs to the body (crack repair, brace repair etc.).
The world is running out of the woods we guitarists crave (Maple, spruce, rosewood, mahogany, ebony) and the Guitar makers will have to switch to other woods, use inferior woods (it sounds like Gibson has been doing that in this decade) or go to man made materials (Gibson tried this with the fingerboards and it did not work well).
Gibson had some difficulties with quality in the 70's and overcame that. I expect that they will overcome the recent problems.
But indeed caveat emptor is good advice.
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Vinny~ Do you think the issues you've experienced on your archtops built from 2013 - 2015 are in part, a result of Gibson's problems with the Lacey Act, and the government's actions taken against them starting in 2009 through 2011?
Knock on Wood: Importers Fret After Feds Raid Guitar Maker Under Lacey Act
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To Vinny's point - I have also noticed similar issues on Gibson Archtop's during my many visits to TMZ over the past few years.
Specifically, lacquer checking on fingerboard binding adjacent frets - mainly in the upper areas past the 10 fret.
I've also witnessed the slight tail rise - and several issues with fret buzzing. Of course none of this would prevent me from purchasing a great sounding Gibson guitar ( at the right price) but it's a bit disconcerting - and the reason I ask to play all inventory of a specific model when the opportunity presents itself.
I also have a 98' Legrand with the Walnut shrinkage - but it's very slight - so that might just be inherent with dissimilar wood choices used on laminated necks. In fact , the gentlemen who sold me the Legrand was a Gibson dealer for 30 years in Philadelphia and has seen the walnut shrinkage to some extent for years.
As for Gibson's workmanship capability - I recently acquired a 2009 Lee Ritenour L5 that has the finest workmanship of any Gibson Archtop I have seen. The neck is perfectly straight, no binding lacquer checks and fit and finish is impeccable . I have action set .050 high E, .070 low E with 12-52's and not a single buzz anywhere.
I wonder if other Gibson Archtop owners prior to Vinny's noted time frame have experienced similar issues - especially the lacquer checks adjacent frets.
Being in the manufacturing business - Im beginning to think the binding lacquer check issue on the fingerboard is likely inherent in the manufacturing process to some extent (i.e change in lacquer, curing , masking , Assy stress etc) - Ive noticed it on too many guitars to think otherwise - and it certainly never stopped me from buying a Gibson Archtop. But as Vinny noted - at this price point we have very high expectations .
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I was thinking the same thing reading the post. The current Gibson corporate minded executive probably aren't allowing additional costs for R&D and/or buy aged wood from other luthiers.
Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
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I'm not sure how you can not blame Gibson for this. They're the one's using wood before it's dry enough. In my mind that's pretty much the cardinal sin of guitar building. I had my own Gibson disaster a long time ago and it was the worst experience I ever had with a guitar so I'll accept that I'm not really objective but the sorts of things that you're describing are just not supposed to happen.
And I wouldn't blame the raid (I've been in that argument too many times and I'm not going back again). I believe that they are simply making more high end guitars than their wood supply supports.Last edited by Jim Soloway; 04-30-2017 at 05:35 PM.
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Not at all. Gibson's made in 2011.....yes. The fretboards on my 13-15's are perfect and the trussrods work flawlessly. Only problem...neck checking and walnut shrinkage. Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
Last edited by vinnyv1k; 04-30-2017 at 06:45 PM.
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Gibson has a obligation to supply the demand. I have seen a lot of new Heritage guitars with major checks too. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Good wood is mostly gone IMO. I was wrong about new growth wood. Now I have solid proof.
On a positive note....I bought a regular 2016 ES175 with the now pinned bridge. It sounded so good I bought another one after I found out they were discontinued by Gibson. Let's see what happens in a year but plugged in they sound better than my L5's IMO. They are tone monsters and kick sand in the VOS's face...only IMO.
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You say you live in CA with "perfect" humidity, but what is that? In Nebraska the humidity varies indoors from 25-35% in the winter to 45-55% in the summer (with the AC on, of course). I've had no problems like this with newer guitars.
Maybe recent guitars are designed for a higher average humidity than you experience?
I love California and agree the climate is great, but many areas could be classified as desert.
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Nobody has an obligation to supply the demand. A demand curve shows a quantity demanded at each and every price. With a reduced supply they simply shift rightward along the curve and the quantity demanded drops as the price rises. They do have an obligation to sell a customer a guitar that is stable and doesn't have part of the neck shrinking after the sale is made. I'll bet that you can't find a Collings with a similar problem. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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I don't think Gibson has an obligation to supply the demand. Gibson has an obligation to deliver instruments worth the price. If that means fewer instruments, then that is what is right.
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Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Sorry V, I am just not sure what you mean. By neck checking do you mean 'weather checking' ?....
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I do not think Gibson would knowingly have done this. I suspect it has been expensive to rectify and they have solved the problem. Sometimes in business, the supplies you buy are not up to par. Sometimes a new process fails to produce.
That said, my 90's Gibsons have aged well. Maybe the new ones will be great in 20 years. For some of us, that is too long to wait.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
You say you live in CA with "perfect" humidity, but what is that? In Nebraska the humidity varies indoors from 25-35% in the winter to 45-55% in the summer (with the AC on, of course). I've had no problems like this with newer guitars.
Maybe recent guitars are designed for a higher average humidity than you experience?
I love California and agree the climate is great, but many areas could be classified as desert.
I just checked the humidity in my living room and it is at 6%. Ouch
Since I purchased a Super 400 and was yelled at by one of the Rainbow technicians for not managing my humidity, I've been watchin the humidity in the house much closer.
My guitar room was hanging above 30% until the last few weeks as the dry weather has been setting in here. The humidity is usually very low here until late June or early July. Usually in the teens or even the single digits.
I finally purchased a humidifier and my guitar room is now hovering around 40% ... so hopefully that will protect my investments a little better.
My newest Gibson is my 2011 Super 400 and I have L5s from 08 and a '10. I haven't noticed any problems ... so maybe the issues are with more recent models
But then I'm not the most observant and probably too tolerant of QC faults in my guitars if they play well and sound good.
I don't see the problem as old growth wood verses new so much as whether or not Gibson did it's due diligence in drying and seasoning the wood before starting the build. Old growth wood not properly seasoned can still have issues if it is used in a guitar build before it is ready.
This article covers some of the issues FWIW.
Sucking the Sap From Tonewoods
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Vinny approaches this from an entirely different perspective than I do. But I absolutely see his point. I buy used mainly because they are better values to me. So a couple of imperfections don't matter to me. Vinny shells out big money for only new Gibsons and expects/deserves perfection.
Bottom line bro, even BooBoo with a broken head and shrinking 1/8 strips of walnut is one of the best playing, sounding, looking guitars I've ever owned. But I totally understand where you are coming from.
People who buy new guitars should get perfect guitars. The minute the manufacturer disagrees, is the 1st minute of the end of there existence.
I hope Gibson is listening.
Joe D
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Bingo! Originally Posted by Bluedawg
i totally agree. Proper drying (not rushing it ) is the best approach. I love the new sturdy Gibson build quality.
But the woods gotta be ready.
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The humidity where I live is almost always around 65 and never below low 50's ever. I have bought Gibson's since 1972 and never this happening till 2013. Just a heads up if you are considering a 13-15 model. Time will tell with the 2016's.
Also stay away from the 2011 laminated fretboards. Trussrod will not budge them...just a FYI from what has happened to me. 13-15 do not have plywood fretboards and the trussrods work fine. Also the frets on 2013-15's are perfect and they sound great. No checking on the body's at all. Just the necks.
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Yes Originally Posted by Dennis D
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Vinny, I got no argument with your complaint (lord knows I've seen enough crappy Gibson QC), but you bought seven.
Me, I'd have stopped at three, tops.
I've said it for years: I'll never buy a new Gibby. Used? Sure, and some of yours are. But I do not trust their workmanship at all. I've seen too much bullshit from them on guitars laying close on three bills used! I'll buy Heritage or MiJ.
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The 2012s have the bilayer rosewood fretboards. Not all of the 2012s do; the early ones have a solid rosewood fretboard. You have to pop off the nut to see what you have got. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
The 2011s do not have bilayer fretboards.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-01-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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If Gibson's CEO doesn't understand why people prefer used to new he needs to read this thread.
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Maybe not all guitars of the mentioned years are concerned.
My 2013 LeGrand does not show any of the issues mentioned. I bought it used in January 2017 from a shop in Yokohama. Humidity in Japan is high maybe this had some positive influence. Will see how it develops here. At least there's hope it won't happen.
My 2014 LeeRitenour needed the fret ends dressed (no nibs on that one) when i received it in January 2016, probably due to a slight shrinkage of the fingerboard. I had been told about it beforehand by QAman who helped me select one from two available guitars.
On both guitars i can not detect neither Walnut laminate strip shrinkage, nor lacquer checking in any areas of the neck or binding. Lucky me so far!
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My '16 L5 CES has a slight walnut strip shrinkage, too. Not too bad but I can feel it. Also, on some parts along the neck there is tangible transition from neck to neck binding. I don't notice it while playing it so if it doesn't change any further I don't care. There is no checking and no tail rise. But the guitar is about a year old so many things can still happen. For now I'm happy with it. Plays and sounds wonderful, I much prefer it over two Heritage Golden Eagles I've owned before.
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Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
And where is the walnut used - -in a similar place on all models ?
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My 2011 absolutely did. The Crimson shop confirmed this. It was a custom single P90 175 build. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
In fact I had to wait a long time for this guitar because of the fretboard shortage. If memory serves me I took delivery in late 2011. The trussrod didn't have the strength to straighten the neck. I had Frank Ford vise straighten it perfect and quickly sold it. Those plywood fingerboards are too stiff to move with a trussrod.Last edited by vinnyv1k; 05-01-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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