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Double post.
Last edited by Vladan; 01-19-2017 at 07:47 AM.
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01-19-2017 07:41 AM
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Well said.
Originally Posted by Longways to Go
Hey Lawson,
Ease up. You did a super great job & threw yourself out there.
Very nice work, and thank you so much for putting up this super useful comparison vid too, as the topic of the Epi 175 has been pretty hot around here -- especially as it has been on blowout discount prices recently. . .
I've been jonesing for a Gibson 165 for a few years now since I played a nice one & let it slip away . . . but meanwhile, my Epi 175 Premium scratches that itch -- mostly.
An excellent contribution to the Jazz Guitar Forum IMO
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Great Vladan. I didn't wait better reply from you.
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What an excellent post - thank you! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Hey Everyone,
This morning I'm regretting that I let my frustration and disappointment boil over in my post. You all are very gracious and I appreciate the support.
I think Vladan might have a very important point: what if the pickups are the 57+? That would, in one fell swoop, explain the hotter output of the Epiphone. I will check that later today and get back to you, or of course, someone here who has the Epi could check for themselves and post what they find.
I also need to double-check the pickup adjustments involved, something I didn't do. That is partly because I have a pretty standard way of adjusting my pickups. I lower the pickup until, when I play over it, the pick won't strike the pickup, which is something that aggravates me! Then I raise/lower the pole pieces to match the radius of the strings, after which I then adjust each string to try to even out the volume amongst them. So after a while, all my guitars have about the same adjustment on the pickups, but since the Epiphone is new, I should look at that to be sure.
I would love to capture all the guitar's sounds in one recording: mic'd speaker (my favorite), direct out from the pre-amp, and a nice mic for the acoustic, but in the end, it all gets mixed to B- 2 channel stereo on YouTube, so I don't know how helpful that would be. I also don't know how to capture all those separate channels with the modest recording rig that I have.
I actually understand Vladan's points. I think Vladan is someone who is very interested in the technical aspects of recording and very interested in the many variables that affect recorded sound. He wants to see all the variables controlled, and I totally get that concern. I am sorry I over-reacted and took his technical concern personally, and I apologize to him for that.
Unfortunately, due to my own limits of understanding, limits of equipment, and limits of time, I doubt I can do much better than I did in that clip. I might check the pickup adjustment and try it again.
Meanwhile I wonder if a thread on making these clips would be worthwhile? For players with only a "player-ish" knowledge of recording, with modest equipment, and with YouTube as the destination... how do we make the best clips that capture the feeling of each instrument?
On that score, without (for now) being defensive, I can tell you that the clip I posted matches what I think I'm hearing from each guitar pretty well. The ES165 is the one whose really distinctive character is least obvious in the clip. Live it has something else that I am not sure how to describe.
I'm sorry for my boiling over at you guys. You are all, every one of you, valued colleagues in this great endeavor of playing jazz guitar. Every one of you has helped me on my journey, and every one of you deserved a more gracious response than what I posted.
So... like the man said in the movie, "I' not dead yet!"
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Thank you Lawson. You are a gentleman. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I found Lawson's comparison quite interesting and well done. It raised my awareness of the more recent version of the Epi ES175, which I've never paid any attention to because I have a 1998 Epi Zephyr Regent that I'm fairly happy with. Browsing around Youtube, I see there are a lot of pretty happy owners of this guitar. There are some pretty good recorded sounds of this guitar out there that pretty much support Lawson's findings. If I didn't have my Epi Zephyr Regent, I'd definitely consider one of these.
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So I pulled the neck pickup on the Epi ES175 Premium and was interested to see that while the bridge pickup says "57+" the neck pickup is merely "57"
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One another note, the Gibson site says of the Classic 57+ that "They are the perfect bridge-position companion to the ’57 Classic" and even recommends them for the bridge position in guitars that have a Classic 57 in the neck, so I guess the Epi is just following Gibson's recommended matching for the pickups.
I also measured the resistance, 7.66 kO, a bit higher than advertised.
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That's what I had read a few times over many forums on the Epi 175 Premiums. That the bridge was the + version.
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NGD Epi Premium ES 175 at blow out price! | Page 5 | Telecaster Guitar Forum
From TDPRI, photos of the pickups.
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Good work ... I enjoyed the video
I'm lucky that I picked up my 175 when you could get one new for under $1K US ..... not sure I would spring for one new at their current prices ... these days I would have to buy used or just save a little more and pick up a used L5
I just picked up a Super 400 and I've had a couple of L5s for about 6 years now .....
But when I pull out my 175 I'm convinced it is all I really need to make me happy .....
not that the L5s and Super 400 will be going any where now that I actually have them .... but if my finances were a little tighter and I knew what I know now .... the 175 would be more than enough
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Your follow-up is above and beyond Lawson.
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I deal in video post production software use, and testing of cameras, codecs, program features and such often have the same situation occur. Occasionally because one dude (never the gals, note!) is an a-orifice, but mostly because all our experience and passions take slightly different bends. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Very much like this discussion. Makes me feel right at home! Sigh.
And I do understand Vladan's queries ... I can go right down the same tech testing procedural trail myself in a half second flat. Featuring this overly analytical brain of mine, which is a challenge for most around me most of the time!
You're reporting on this has been first rate, and I love your recording and comments.
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
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Lawson you making my old baby sound great! They were close. Closer than I thought they would be.
The Epi is a great buy. But the 165 is a greater buy because it's the real deal. I think your playing flows better on it.
Oh, man it was so nice hearing my old baby in action. Thanks buddy. That was a real treat.
Joe D
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Hey Joe Originally Posted by Max405
I feel badly that of the three the recording loses most with the 165. It's got something in its sound I haven't been able to capture!
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I got intrigued over the acoustic/electric question, so did a very quick-and-dirty take using the ES165 and the Epi (I don't have the 175 here at the office today).
To make sure there is no contamination, I played the electric into the pre-amp but with no speaker, taking the direct line out. The acoustic is via microphone, which is a Bluebird "Blue" model. Electric is on the Left, Acoustic on the Right.
Other than taking down the input gain to reduce clipping, I didn't do anything to the levels at any point. Still, the Epiphone sounds louder on this recording than it seemed to sound to my ear.
The Epi has a rattle after I pulled the neck pickup yesterday, and with the weather changing here, it has developed a little buzz at the 12th fret. Sorry about that.
I hope this helps the conversation.
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Thanks for this new video. The Epi is a bit brighter to my ears, and again seems to have more sustain, with some kind of natural drive (maybe it's the little buzz that's enhancing that impression?)
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Purely in my personnal tastes I prefer the Epiphone, it sounds a little more fluid to me with the little advantage on the sustain (again, to my ears).
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The 165 is cleaner and more "pure". I hear the slightest amount of noise around the notes on the Epi, but Jeeze you really have to listen in order to hear it.
The Epi is great buy.
But the 165 is just 1st class all the way.
Great job Lawson.
Joe D.
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Actually I recall how much you told me I'd love the acoustic sound of the 165. I remember thinking I don't really care that much since I go for the electric, but actually the 165 is pretty amazing on that score. I also think the very focused tone I hear from it electrically echoes the acoustic tone. I wish I understood better how the guitar's acoustic features shaped it's sound through the pickups, but this guitar's sound is very similar on both levels, and very different from the Gibson 1959 ES175 model. Originally Posted by Max405
In fact, I think among all 3, they differ electrically in very much the same ways they differ acoustically.
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That's what I think. The Epi seems to have more power acousticly, which transfers in a louder electric sound.
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I think you are very wrong my ... ...friend (?). Originally Posted by Jx30510
Acoustic power has very very little to do with direct sound from PUs. Epi and 165 sound different in their pure direct electrical sound, because they have different PUs. 57 vs. 490, maybe even differently specd electronic parts used in wiring.
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I am certainly no expert in acoustic and electric mechanics/science, but I would think that the acoustic effect on the amplified sound would have at least something to do with sympathetic vibrations of the strings caused by the acoustic waves. These subtle vibrations of strings other than the one fretted would be picked up in some sense as overtones and contribute to the electric sound. Then again, I'm making this all up based on my theoretical understanding of science and not any actual physical evidence/research.
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The main difference between Gibson and Epi's is Gibson is made in the U.S. The parts are high priced but great and the wood. Gibson's made after 2009 don't have the good aged wood was a fire. Epi's wood can be made from cheaper woods and will sound difference.
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