Gibson & Epiphone ES-175 Compared

[blille]

There are saddles available, but mostly entire bridges. The post spacing varies a lot, and you would need to carefully measure what you have and insure that what you buy has the same spacing. You can unpin the bridge if you want, by screwing the posts out far enough to get the bottom ends inside the base. I'm assuming the Gibson posts have either Allen (hex) or slotted top ends. If not, you can still get it done by (carefully, so as not to booger the threads) unscrewing them with pliers or something similar, with the bridge disassembled. The top of the posts might stick up out of the saddle afterwards, and that may or may not bother you. You have to decide which is your preference - dealing with the posts, or the work of mating the bottom of a new base to the top of the guitar. It needs to fit very closely for optimal tone and volume.

It sounds like removing the posts might be easier. Next time I switch strings I'll check it out. Thanks!


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[blille]

Gentlemen, with all the discussions going on about comparing the Epiphone ES175 Premium to a "real" ES175 etc, this afternoon I decided to record the identical music on the Gibson ES175 VOS1959, the Epiphone ES175 Premium, and the Gibson ES165 Herb Ellis (older model).

FYI the music is a Jimmy Raney solo based on "Just Friends" from the Aebersold Vol. 20 Play-a-Long. Some of us in a study group have been learning some of these solos.

There are clams and mistakes in the playing, but I hope the comparison of the 3 instruments is helpful.

In such a comparison, the signal-chain is relevant. On each guitar, volume is set at 7, tone at 10. Played through a Polytone Baby Brute, with pretty much flat EQ, mic'd with a Shure SM57 into a Presonus Audiobox iTwo, and from thence via USB to my iPhone 6. I punched up the guitar volume a tad over the backing track in mastering the clip, but added no EQ or effects. The guitar is isolated in the R channel if you just want to hear that.

All mistakes, and they are many, are my own doing...

I know this comes late but I have an Epi ES175 premium and I aspire to have a Gibson ES175 or 165 so this video is pretty much amazing. Thanks for taking the time.


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[Tal_175]

Yes it's an old thread but then I am bored at work and the topic is still relevant.
I see there is a discussion about the reasons as to why Epi sounds brighter and louder (as it does).
I didn't read every single entry due to feelings of guilt but I am surprised none of you gear freaks out there mentioned that Epi has maple neck, Gibsons mahogany. Can that be the reason?

[lawson-stone]

Yes it's an old thread but then I am bored at work and the topic is still relevant.
I see there is a discussion about the reasons as to why Epi sounds brighter and louder (as it does).
I didn't read every single entry due to guilt but I am surprised none of you gear freaks out there mentioned that Epi has maple neck, Gibsons mahogany. Can that be the reason?

And the neck is enough slimmer than the Gibson be lighter. This whole guitar is about 1.5 pounds lighter than the standard issue Gibson ES175. It's more like the VOS1959.

[Little Jay]

Yes it's an old thread but then I am bored at work and the topic is still relevant.
I see there is a discussion about the reasons as to why Epi sounds brighter and louder (as it does).
I didn't read every single entry due to feelings of guilt but I am surprised none of you gear freaks out there mentioned that Epi has maple neck, Gibsons mahogany. Can that be the reason?

The newest incarnation Epiphone ES-175 (also the one Lawson used in the comparison video) has a solid mahogany neck!

[Tal_175]

The newest incarnation Epiphone ES-175 (also the one Lawson used in the comparison video) has a solid mahogany neck!

You're right, looks like that's one of the upgrades of the premium model:
Epiphone ES-175 Premium
Even the finish is laquer now, older models had Poly finish. Specs look identical to the Gibson model now I think. May be Gibson is gradually "downsizing" ES 175 line by moving the production to Epiphone

[advid]

..round about the mid 60's I magaged to find a used Gibson '59 ES 175 (natural). I was using at that time a Gretsch Country Club (Cadillac Green - No bigsby - with the 'mud' switch ). I was into a bit of Chet and Merle but for 'general' gigging it didn't quite do what I was after. Getting into a bit of jazz at that time as well....

The Gibson 175 was beautiful....I played if for many years as my only gigging guitar. Playing all sorts of gigs and styles of music and even recording. It certainly did me 'proud'.....

I used it for about 20 years but unfortunately I had to sell it (plus my other guitars at home) - for personal reasons....

I really 'gave up' guitar at that and continued with 'everyday life'....also played a bit of piano.

A few months back, now 20 years on and fully retired from day work (doing the occasional music gig - still on piano)...I decided to buy a guitar....I looked at Gibson prices and 'wow' - astronomical.... If I'd put my hand into my wallet I could have brought a new or a used 'vintage' one but I thought that it really was not worth it at my time of life. After all - it's only a bit of wood with six strings on (lol) ?

I decided to look at the Epiphone 175's . I ordered (online) first a 'blonde' one from a well known UK store ... it was not bad but really not doing anything for me. Compared to memories of my old Gibson it was a 'no go'. I sent it back and orded another Epiphone 175 from a different dealer...this time a Sunburst. Again - only 'half alive', no real feel that you get when you pick up and play a guitar that 'comes to you'....

I was again disappointed and again sent it back to the dealer for a full refund....

I began looking on eBay and other selling sites in the UK and came across a Sunburst Epi. 175.
I took a chance and again brought online and the seller posted it to me (very secure with its own hard case).
As soon as it arrived I took it from the case picked it up tuned it and 'WOW' - what a difference - it was alive... totally responsive to my playing.... In fact to me it played even better that my old Gibson. Can't praise it enough.... I checked on the Serial Number and found it was a 2008 model.

All I'm really saying is even if you can afford your Gibson, If it doesn't play like you want it to be part of you then don't waste your time and money. Look for another OR even buy a cheaper 'lookalike'...

I know their's prestige and a bit of snobbery in owning a 'classic' Gibson but if you are only going to put it in your collection in its lovely glass case or hang it on the wall then OK. If you're really a guitar player - buy an instrument that plays like you need it to...Every guitar sounds different even an L5 or Super 400....(I've played some of those as well)....I'm not ashamed of my Epiphone and when I play it it's got everything I need from those six strings and a bit of wood.....

[Little Jay]

..round about the mid 60's I magaged to find a used Gibson '59 ES 175 (natural). I was using at that time a Gretsch Country Club (Cadillac Green - No bigsby - with the 'mud' switch ). I was into a bit of Chet and Merle but for 'general' gigging it didn't quite do what I was after. Getting into a bit of jazz at that time as well....

The Gibson 175 was beautiful....I played if for many years as my only gigging guitar. Playing all sorts of gigs and styles of music and even recording. It certainly did me 'proud'.....

I used it for about 20 years but unfortunately I had to sell it (plus my other guitars at home) - for personal reasons....

I really 'gave up' guitar at that and continued with 'everyday life'....also played a bit of piano.

A few months back, now 20 years on and fully retired from day work (doing the occasional music gig - still on piano)...I decided to buy a guitar....I looked at Gibson prices and 'wow' - astronomical.... If I'd put my hand into my wallet I could have brought a new or a used 'vintage' one but I thought that it really was not worth it at my time of life. After all - it's only a bit of wood with six strings on (lol) ?

I decided to look at the Epiphone 175's . I ordered (online) first a 'blonde' one from a well known UK store ... it was not bad but really not doing anything for me. Compared to memories of my old Gibson it was a 'no go'. I sent it back and orded another Epiphone 175 from a different dealer...this time a Sunburst. Again - only 'half alive', no real feel that you get when you pick up and play a guitar that 'comes to you'....

I was again disappointed and again sent it back to the dealer for a full refund....

I began looking on eBay and other selling sites in the UK and came across a Sunburst Epi. 175.
I took a chance and again brought online and the seller posted it to me (very secure with its own hard case).
As soon as it arrived I took it from the case picked it up tuned it and 'WOW' - what a difference - it was alive... totally responsive to my playing.... In fact to me it played even better that my old Gibson. Can't praise it enough.... I checked on the Serial Number and found it was a 2008 model.

All I'm really saying is even if you can afford your Gibson, If it doesn't play like you want it to be part of you then don't waste your time and money. Look for another OR even buy a cheaper 'lookalike'...

I know their's prestige and a bit of snobbery in owning a 'classic' Gibson but if you are only going to put it in your collection in its lovely glass case or hang it on the wall then OK. If you're really a guitar player - buy an instrument that plays like you need it to...Every guitar sounds different even an L5 or Super 400....(I've played some of those as well)....I'm not ashamed of my Epiphone and when I play it it's got everything I need from those six strings and a bit of wood.....

Great story and good advise advid!

But also a bit disturbing to read that apparently there's a lot of fluctuation in quality in those Epi's and they can really be hit or miss! (Well... as with any guitar perhaps?)

[advid]

You are correct about the sound differences between the same model of guitars. I am also surprised as so many new guitars are now made with CNC precision, the bodies and necks merely hacked and shaped identically (two or three or more at a time) on computerised machines. There 'should not' be much difference. To view two guitars off the same batch they should (and usually do) look identical but somehow for what reason I do not know they do not always play or sound the same.

.....what I mentioned in my previous message about a guitar 'coming to you' is an unknown entity.....My 2008 Epiphone acoustically has an 'immediateness' (if that's a word) about it. Play a note or strum - it responds in a way that is instant...can't describe it. The other Epiphones that I mentioned had a sort of 'build up' time to a note or chord ....Acoustically a 175 is never going to be an L5 but the acoustic sound of mine has a sound that just makes me feel 'wow'.... An electric guitar (the sort we are talking about) is an acoustic guitar with electrics. You can always change the pickups or pots or your amp to get a different sound BUT if it's not got that inbuilt acoustic sound and feel that it was born with you'll never be happy....

Believe me - Over my years I've played many very costly guitars. (L7c / L5 / L5c / L5ces / Super 400 / Byrdland ) and you know what - my favorite was an old L50 that I played - it had that 'wow' factor.

You can spend thousand of dollars or pounds and still not get what you are really paying for.....

[lawson-stone]

Great story and good advise advid!

But also a bit disturbing to read that apparently there's a lot of fluctuation in quality in those Epi's and they can really be hit or miss! (Well... as with any guitar perhaps?)

Are they the same? His "keeper" was a 2008 which is not the recent "premium" model. I think people often forget that the "Premium" models that were only on the market briefly are different from the older Epiphone ES175s. Different pickups and electronics for sure, maybe different construction too. I've heard nothing but good things about the "premium" models with the Gibson 57 Classic pickups, but I also have an older model that is an ES165 clone, the Zephyr Regent Re-Issue, and it's very nice too once the pickup was changed out. But there really are two different "generations" of the Epiphone ES175, and I imagine different features of each appeal to different people.

[advid]

Are they the same? His "keeper" was a 2008 which is not the recent "premium" model. I think people often forget that the "Premium" models that were only on the market briefly are different from the older Epiphone ES175s. Different pickups and electronics for sure, maybe different construction too. I've heard nothing but good things about the "premium" models with the Gibson 57 Classic pickups, but I also have an older model that is an ES165 clone, the Zephyr Regent Re-Issue, and it's very nice too once the pickup was changed out. But there really are two different "generations" of the Epiphone ES175, and I imagine different features of each appeal to different people.

....you are right - my 2008 'keeper' was from a different generation from those being made today but I must add that having played both generations and despite the comments that the newer ones sound that much better I certainly don't agree. But its 'horses for courses' as they say....

It's not just down to what electrics they have .... that 'acoustic' guitar sound that it had at 'birth' when it was manufactured - it's wooden 'personality' must be part of the sound you are craving for and must be included in the OVERALL SOUND that you are aiming for.

[LtKojak]

A well-played instrument will beat any closet queen, hands down, every time.

Guess how I know this...?

[joe2758]

A well-played instrument will beat any closet queen, hands down, every time.

Guess how I know this...?

Do you mean it has been played more because it's better, or that over time with more play it becomes better?

Thanks

Edit: to clarify I've heard of solid top guitars "opening up" after time, and I believe that, but I was wondering what you guys thought of a plywood opening up or getting better over time

[LtKojak]

with more play it becomes better

SPACE S^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^

[lawson-stone]

....you are right - my 2008 'keeper' was from a different generation from those being made today but I must add that having played both generations and despite the comments that the newer ones sound that much better I certainly don't agree. But its 'horses for courses' as they say....

It's not just down to what electrics they have .... that 'acoustic' guitar sound that it had at 'birth' when it was manufactured - it's wooden 'personality' must be part of the sound you are craving for and must be included in the OVERALL SOUND that you are aiming for.

Honestly I doubt many buy a laminated 2-routed-in-pickup archtop for its acoustic sound. I have the older generation Epiphone (1 pickup) and the newer. The older needed a new pickup, the stock was just blah. But the premium model is by far the better playing and sounding guitar to me. A key is that the premium model is designed more like the VOS 1959 ES175s than the newer ones. It's a almost 20 ounces lighter than a "stock" ES175. Lots of people like that, some hate it. Some love that much heavier style ES175.

Not better/worse, just different; but if you are looking for an acoustic vibe, maybe the ES175 is not the best place to find it.

Me, I don't look for the acoustic dimension except as it influences how the electrified sound comes over. If I want acoustic, I play an acoustic.

[Al Br.]

If it has been mentioned I apologize for the repeat. If anyone has been swayed by all the above discussion there is an Epiphone Premium ES-175 for sale on Reverb for $680 in near mint condition. It has a slight blemish on its side, hence the "near mint" status.
Great way to start off the week.

[advid]

....A few days ago I met a guy who I came across who has a nice guitar collection....Went round to his place to look them over and play and jam bit.... Gibson, Epiphone, Washburn, Guild and and quite a few more...all nice archtop jazz type guitars....He showed me his latest purchase - A brand new Gibson ES -175 - curly maple top blonde....I played it and ---- YUCK --- what a monster....hardly any acoustic tone and a neck as thick as a trunk....not for me....£3500 he paid for it...My 2008 Epiphone 175 knock spots of it.....

[lawson-stone]

....A few days ago I met a guy who I came across who has a nice guitar collection....Went round to his place to look them over and play and jam bit.... Gibson, Epiphone, Washburn, Guild and and quite a few more...all nice archtop jazz type guitars....He showed me his latest purchase - A brand new Gibson ES -175 - curly maple top blonde....I played it and ---- YUCK --- what a monster....hardly any acoustic tone and a neck as thick as a trunk....not for me....£3500 he paid for it...My 2008 Epiphone 175 knock spots of it.....

Sounds a little over-intense to me. A good many of us appreciate the ES175 without caring too much about its acoustic tone. I have a recent ES175 with only limited acoustic tone but I love it amplified. Who really buys a laminated archtop with double routed-in pickups and a cutaway for acoustic tone?

[christianm77]

Actually too much acoustic tone can be a problem if you have issues with feedback.

That said my 175 is pretty lively unplugged and I haven’t had any problems. But I don’t do any organ trio gigs on it :-)

[advid]

....surely the acoustic sound of a guitar must be a major part of getting that 'sound' you desire so much ?

Otherwise if its all down to just the electrics you might as well use a solid guitar...?

That 'earthy' 'deep' 'rich' JAZZ sound comes from the body of the guitar....

[Thumpalumpacus]

Sounds a little over-intense to me. A good many of us appreciate the ES175 without caring too much about its acoustic tone. I have a recent ES175 with only limited acoustic tone but I love it amplified. Who really buys a laminated archtop with double routed-in pickups and a cutaway for acoustic tone?

Much as I don't care about the name on the peghead, I sure agree with this post. The body can and does have influence on the amplified tone, but if they've cut holes in the top and masked vibrations with pickups, then playing the thing acoustically is simply a living-room fiddling thing ... not the raison d'être.

[2bornot2bop]

If it has been mentioned I apologize for the repeat. If anyone has been swayed by all the above discussion there is an Epiphone Premium ES-175 for sale on Reverb for $680 in near mint condition. It has a slight blemish on its side, hence the "near mint" status.
Great way to start off the week.

The problem with that is too many bought these Epi Premi's new for less than $500. Great guitars, albeit with a thin neck.

[wmachine]

Are they the same? His "keeper" was a 2008 which is not the recent "premium" model. I think people often forget that the "Premium" models that were only on the market briefly are different from the older Epiphone ES175s. Different pickups and electronics for sure, maybe different construction too. I've heard nothing but good things about the "premium" models with the Gibson 57 Classic pickups, but I also have an older model that is an ES165 clone, the Zephyr Regent Re-Issue, and it's very nice too once the pickup was changed out. But there really are two different "generations" of the Epiphone ES175, and I imagine different features of each appeal to different people.

My thoughts also. And it is more than the pups too. I did send one back that had construction issues, but did not have the alive sound of the one I have.

Honestly I doubt many buy a laminated 2-routed-in-pickup archtop for its acoustic sound...............
Me, I don't look for the acoustic dimension except as it influences how the electrified sound comes over. If I want acoustic, I play an acoustic.

One thing that has become very important to me, whether is real or perceived, is how an electric sounds unplugged. Over simplified, the more resonance it has the better. "Good ones" have more resonance. I have yet to play one that has great resonance unplugged and does not sound better plugged in. Bear in mind most of this has come from solid body electrics, but far from exclusively. I also find a very discernible difference in this in one guitar to the next of exactly the same model.
I'm sure this concept is arguable, but it has been a really trustworthy measure for me.

[lammie200]

Although I had an ES-175CC many years ago, I can only compare an ES-390 Memphis and an Epi Casino Coupe right now. Kind of a night and day comparison. The nitro versus the poly makes a big difference alone. Both are crafted well, but the Gibson is made of much better woods, electronics, etc. and, even though the geometries are nearly identical, the Gibson just feels and plays a lot better.

[lawson-stone]

....you are right - my 2008 'keeper' was from a different generation from those being made today but I must add that having played both generations and despite the comments that the newer ones sound that much better I certainly don't agree. But its 'horses for courses' as they say....

It's not just down to what electrics they have .... that 'acoustic' guitar sound that it had at 'birth' when it was manufactured - it's wooden 'personality' must be part of the sound you are craving for and must be included in the OVERALL SOUND that you are aiming for.

I've been thinking about this and realized something that is a bit paradoxical. I do agree, and it's the magic of hollow-body guitars, that the guitar's resonant properties, the airspace contained in the body, etc. have an impact on the electric sound. The complex "feedback loop" of strings vibrating into the body, the body vibrates and alters the way the strings vibrate, back and forth which does affect what the pickups "hear" magnetically. Plus the microphonic properties of even wax-potted pickups will relay some of the acoustic properties of the guitar through the amp.

But what I notice is that what makes a pleasing electric hollow-body sound to me is not a "good acoustic sound" unamplified. Those are different sounds (to me). That wonderful pure acoustic tone does not, in my experience, necessarily or even usually "translate" into a nice electric sound though many might think it does. On the other hand, there are--as i said above--acoustic features that do make for a nicer electric sound, to my ear, but they are not predictable based on the naked acoustic sound.

I still think it's an error to expect great acoustic tone from a laminate with routed pickups, though some guitars do at least have a loud sound despite that. So for me the acoustic properties matter, but no in a way that the unamplified sound would actually predict.

If I plan to play a guitar electrically, I listen to it amplified. If I like that, then I don't care whether it has a good unamplified sound or not. I have acoustic guitars for that.