Gibson & Epiphone ES-175 Compared

[lawson-stone]

Ah ok, seems they have genuine 57 Classics nowadays then! I was doubting because I found several pics of Epiphone 57 Classics like the ones I posted that don't resemble the Gibson 57 Classic. My guess is those are from older models then (maybe Les Pauls), before they switched to real ones.

So you make an interesting case with your comparison! What causes the difference in sound? I would be tempted to make the Epi sound even closer to the Gibbies, starting with a wood bridge.

Btw, great playing!

Thanks.

I think the difference could be due to the bridge (biggie). I've been tempted to slip a wood bridge on there just to see what it sounds like. Maybe weight, but the Gibson 175 is 6 pounds 8 oz, and the Epiphone is 6 pounds 5 ounces; I doubt the 3 oz. makes s difference.

So it could also be about the electronics. Maybe pots and caps are different?

[2bornot2bop]

If the pickups in the Epi Premium '175's weren't legit that would be false advertising, yes?

[lawson-stone]

If the pickups in the Epi Premium '175's weren't legit that would be false advertising, yes?

I would think so, unless they have some technicality about "Classic 57" or "57 Classic" or some such. Then again, businesses lie all the time, but I'm assuming they use what they say, and my pickups look like the ones in my Gibson, so I will believe them unless I find otherwise.

[2bornot2bop]

I would think so, unless they have some technicality about "Classic 57" or "57 Classic" or some such. Then again, businesses lie all the time, but I'm assuming they use what they say, and my pickups look like the ones in my Gibson, so I will believe them unless I find otherwise.

Agreed, but if they lied about the authenticity of the pickups Gibson would issue a warning as they did Slaman, yes?

[sgosnell]

I don't think so. Why would Gibson issue a warning to its own subsidiary company? Epiphone has been owned by Gibson for a very long time.

The price a consumer has to pay for an aftermarket pickup is not what Gibson (or Epiphone) pays, and the prices aren't even comparable. Gibson's cost is far less than half the retail price.

[Longways to Go]

Epiphone/Gibson were completely straight forward in the marketing of the Epi 175 Premium that the pickups are Gibson USA 57's. The truth of that is obvious to anyone who has played one, because the pickups make it sound really really good --- so much better than the previous Epiphone 175 version.
The change to Gibson 57's was one of the major factors in making this model "premium"

This thread is sorta getting derailed on a confusion sort of non-real issue.

Also, the Epi has a mahogany neck, in case anyone is sorting out the details.

[Jx30510]

Yes, there seemed to have a confusion on the neck wood. It's clearly mahogany and not maple ; you can see the wood grain of the neck on the natural version, which is clearly mahog.

[va3ux]

Also... let's not forget the "cost" of the pickup is an inner manufacturing cost, which I imagine is far less than we'd think... it's likely almost worth it to by the Epi 175 just to harvest the pickups!

Absolutely. Those pickups are dirt cheap to make. Make 'em for $ 10-15 each, sell 'em for $100.

[Jx30510]

Admitting I would want to swap the TOM bridge only (leaving the wooden base of the original bridge) for a rosewood one, what model would fit?
Are the measurements typically US Gibson, or different? I ask because I'm definitaly going to order the Epi (the video has sold me), and order right away a wood bridge. The problem with those foreign far east guitars is that they somtimes blend Metric and US parts.

[Lobomov]

Well now that we've listened to the recording .. Tell us a bit about the drivers seat experience Lawson.

I hear a lot more of a thunk/honk from the Gibsons and imagine they are much easier to play in the way they react soundwise. Also there the feel issue, but I think that has been covered earlier.

Am I mistaken?

[Jx30510]

Yes very good question

[Vladan]

Kudos for posting playing efforts, as well as for providing us some insight into sound possibilities of these guitars.

Regarding the "test", I mean it is more than we could ask of you, or anybody, but have to say, I wish you matched 3 takes in

- over all level of the mix (for listening)
- guitar absolute levels (in isolation)
- relative levels of guitar and other instruments within the mix
- picking hand position

Also, I wish there were separate recordings of electric signal only, and acoustic sound only (in presented clip we get some combination of the two).
I'm sure it would put even more head scratching time on "holly grail" of guitar tone types.

[lawson-stone]

Well now that we've listened to the recording .. Tell us a bit about the drivers seat experience Lawson.

I hear a lot more of a thunk/honk from the Gibsons and imagine they are much easier to play in the way they react soundwise. Also there the feel issue, but I think that has been covered earlier.

Am I mistaken?

The Epiphone feels great to play. Were I blindfolded, I don't think I could separate the Epi from the Gibson's, except for the often-noted fact that the Gibson's can overall feel more "solid" which might have to do with higher weight, I don't know. But playing the Epiphone is wonderful. No complaints. Out of the carton, I put on TI 12s, gave the truss rod a tiny twist (less than 1/8 turn), and raised the bridge, and it has been great. In the current moist weather we are having, it has a little buzz at the 12th fret, but I imagine raising the treble end of the bridge will cure that. All my guitars shift a bit with the weather.

[lawson-stone]

Kudos for posting playing efforts, as well as for providing us some insight into sound possibilities of these guitars.

Regarding the "test", I mean it is more than we could ask of you, or anybody, but have to say, I wish you matched 3 takes in

- over all level of the mix (for listening)
- guitar absolute levels (in isolation)
- relative levels of guitar and other instruments within the mix
- picking hand position

Also, I wish there were separate recordings of electric signal only, and acoustic sound only (in presented clip we get some combination of the two).
I'm sure it would put even more head scratching time on "holly grail" of guitar tone types.

Actually a lot of this is already there. I don't know what you mean by "overall level of the mix." A number is meaningless without knowledge of the equipment. My Polytone Baby Brute was set to 5's on all 3 EQ knobs, 5 on volume. All the guitars were set for 10 on tone, 7 on volume. Mic'd with a Shure SM57 to a PreSonus Audiobox iTwo. Gain on the mic was pretty high, as is typical for inputs covering all levels.

The guitars are all isolated in the Right channel, so if you turn down the left you can just hear the guitars.

In mastering, I did nothing to the recording for EQ. I turned the background track down to about 70%, bumped the guitars all up to about 120% to correct for the balance (I wanted to really hear the background well while recording, but didn't want it dominant in the mix). In final mix I raised the overall volume to about 120% IIRC.

I nearly always pick in the same place, about halfway between the end of the neck and the bridge.

I have no interest at all in separating acoustic/electric. These are electric guitars, I don't care about the acoustic side. But I might try to do that, maybe with a solo guitar sample, just for fun, or just to please you!

[lawson-stone]

Yes, there seemed to have a confusion on the neck wood. It's clearly mahogany and not maple ; you can see the wood grain of the neck on the natural version, which is clearly mahog.

The confusion was entirely mine. I simply mis-remembered and mis-spoke. I think it's all been corrected by the collective Hive Mind of the forum!

[Little Jay]

So it could also be about the electronics. Maybe pots and caps are different?

Unless pots and caps have different values or wiring is of really inferior quality, I doubt different (cheaper) electronics would have a noticeable impact on the tone. In my experience better pots and caps are only needed if the feel and slope of the electronics are not to your liking. What I've seen from recent Epiphone wiring is good quality with neat soldering.

It could be that there is a difference in the electronic schematics of the guitars: 50ies versus modern wiring. Chances are the VOS is 50ies and the 165 and Epiphone are modern:



That would change the behavior of tone and volume pots so guitars would sound different at the same pot-settings, but in theory I think both wiring methods should sound the same with all pots fully up.

[lawson-stone]

Unless pots and caps have different values or wiring is of really inferior quality, I doubt different (cheaper) electronics would have a noticeable impact on the tone. In my experience better pots and caps are only needed if the feel and slope of the electronics are not to your liking. What I've seen from recent Epiphone wiring is good quality with neat soldering.

It could be that there is a difference in the electronic schematics of the guitars: 50ies versus modern wiring. Chances are the VOS is 50ies and the 165 and Epiphone are modern:



That would change the behavior of tone and volume pots so guitars would sound different at the same pot-settings, but in theory I think both wiring methods should sound the same with all pots fully up.

I'm really enjoying this discussion and so I might try to see what's inside my VOS1959. I don't know if I can spot the wiring differences without pulling the pots, which I don't want to do.

What's the deal where some old Gibson's turn all the volume down if one volume knob is turned all the way down?

[christianm77]

Is that why my old 175 doesn't cut that much tone when it's rolled off? (I like that BTW)

[lawson-stone]

Here are the best shots I could get of the wiring in my VOS1959 ES175. Does this give any clue on how it's wired?

[Vladan]

Actually a lot of this is already there. I don't know what you mean by "overall level of the mix." A number is meaningless without knowledge of the equipment. My Polytone Baby Brute was set to 5's on all 3 EQ knobs, 5 on volume. All the guitars were set for 10 on tone, 7 on volume. Mic'd with a Shure SM57 to a PreSonus Audiobox iTwo. Gain on the mic was pretty high, as is typical for inputs covering all levels.

The guitars are all isolated in the Right channel, so if you turn down the left you can just hear the guitars.

In mastering, I did nothing to the recording for EQ. I turned the background track down to about 70%, bumped the guitars all up to about 120% to correct for the balance (I wanted to really hear the background well while recording, but didn't want it dominant in the mix). In final mix I raised the overall volume to about 120% IIRC.

I nearly always pick in the same place, about halfway between the end of the neck and the bridge.

I have no interest at all in separating acoustic/electric. These are electric guitars, I don't care about the acoustic side. But I might try to do that, maybe with a solo guitar sample, just for fun, or just to please you!

Lawson, you can rest assured, if anything of what I asked for was already there I would not ask for it. You are good man but you don't know what you are saying.

Overall level of the mix is not a number. It means that various mixes of same piece of music should sounding as being of the same level. Your 3 mixes do not. I have to turn volume knob clock wise and counter clock wise in order to match listening levels.

Balance is right, or it is not, I don't care about that, it's personal preference. What I said, balance of guitar vs. backing is definitely different from one take to another.

Guitars are isolated, though not completely, some backing can be heard from right, but I was not speaking abut that. What I wished for means all 3 guitar takes to sound as being of the same level, on listening to them, in isolation. Your 3 takes do not. I have to turn volume knob clock wise and counter clock wise in order to match listening levels. Those % numbers you cite are meaningless.

You pick nearly the same place, but not in the same place. Your hand moves by 2 inches from take to take. Or it's an optical illusion.

If you are into electric sound only, then you should be very much interested in separating acoustic from electric. To have it all electric, you should not use the mic, but go direct, via cable, from suitable output to recording input.

[Little Jay]

Here are the best shots I could get of the wiring in my VOS1959 ES175. Does this give any clue on how it's wired?

Fifties wiring! (Cap is attached to the left lug of the tone pot)

[Little Jay]

I'm sure (and I hope) you didn't intend to Vladan, but frankly, your reaction sounds like criticism...... I think Lawson already did a great job and what you are asking for seems a bit much.....

[lawson-stone]

Lawson, you can rest assured, if anything of what I asked for was already there I would not ask for it. You are good man but you don't know what you are saying.

Overall level of the mix is not a number. It means that various mixes of same piece of music should sounding as being of the same level. Your 3 mixes do not. I have to turn volume knob clock wise and counter clock wise in order to match listening levels.

Balance is right, or it is not, I don't care about that, it's personal preference. What I said, balance of guitar vs. backing is definitely different from one take to another.

Guitars are isolated, though not completely, some backing can be heard from right, but I was not speaking abut that. What I wished for means all 3 guitar takes to sound as being of the same level, on listening to them, in isolation. Your 3 takes do not. I have to turn volume knob clock wise and counter clock wise in order to match listening levels. Those % numbers you cite are meaningless.

You pick nearly the same place, but not in the same place. Your hand moves by 2 inches from take to take. Or it's an optical illusion.

If you are into electric sound only, then you should be very much interested in separating acoustic from electric. To have it all electric, you should not use the mic, but go direct, via cable, from suitable output to recording input.

I suggest you buy the three guitars then and do it yourself. Sorry my efforts, and the literal hours involved, were not adequate for your needs.

[djelley]

There's one in every crowd

[Vladan]

There's one in every crowd

Thank you. There's always more than one illiterate lackey.

I suggest you buy the three guitars then and do it yourself. Sorry my efforts, and the literal hours involved, were not adequate for your needs.

Lawson, in my original comment there was not a single trace of critique of your work, especially not negative. On the contrary.
Only when you started talking nonsense in your overly defensive response to my post, I critiqued that one and actually gave you some good info.

Regarding buying, not all 3, but even 1 of those guitars is beyond my financial situation, as well as I think it's not really a smart thing to do.

So, you can take your guitars together with your money and ...

I'm sure (and I hope) you didn't intend to Vladan, but frankly, your reaction sounds like criticism...... I think Lawson already did a great job and what you are asking for seems a bit much.....

Jay, I clearly said I thought what he did was more than we could ask for. Frankly, I don't know why anybody would think I was criticising Lawson's presentation. Ckearly he was trying to learn the tune on couple of guitars and decided to give us some insight. It was not set up, or carried out as a real test. I just wished it was because I am sure there would be even less audible difference btw 3 guitars.



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