Guitar Amp Modellers

**Jim Soloway** · 10-13-2016, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Exactly, versatility is what those modelers are good for. Pretty useful for studio work, perfect for small home studio. But how much versatility do you need for a jazz gig? If you find your sound, just stick to it, people will recognize you by your sound. Wedding or cover bands, that's a different story, but I don't do these gigs.

I'm sure there are people here who are looking for more than that but I suspect that for most of us, you are absolutely right. All I'm ever looking for really is the one sound that rattles around my head all the time. Even using a modeller, that's really all I do with it. For me, the one big advantage with a modeller is just how easy it is to record, especially in an uncontrolled environment like mine but even then, I'm really only using one patch almost all the time. I don't even change the parameters when I change the guitar.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 10-13-2016, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Longways to Go

Rhetorical question: If everybody moves on to Modellers, who's gonna develop the next great sounding tube amp to model from?

Despite this being posed as rhetorical, I thought I would add a quick comment. Some of the next possibilities for great amp models are being directly created in the digital realm. Rather than just modeling existing amps, developers, such as Fractal Audio, are creating their own amp models. Fractal has a small roster of totally digitally created amps in their firmware packages.

**Hep To The Jive** · 10-13-2016, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan

Actually, besides the ease of setup of my personal gear that I mentioned above, my place in the live mix is made much easier.

I'm usually on stage with at least piano and vocals. The piano is usually a digital, so we can run everything, including the AX8 into a mixer and set our level that go straight to the PA. I find that much easier than having a free standing amp.

I get many guitarists asking me afterward about how I got my tone and many compliments. Many are really surprised and all are impressed with the modeling.

For the record, I don't feel any issues with a loss of dynamics and the sound is probably less compressed than a lot of tube amps.

It's great! You had a problem, you found a solution. I, for instance, never had that problem, so I keep on using an amp that I like. I used to use ZT Luncbox that probably smaller and lighter than some of them modellers, and got compliments on my tone too. And that how it is- if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

**agentsmith** · 10-13-2016, 05:34 PM

That's a moot point. There's nothing that says tube amps are the end-all-be-all. One reason modelers and SS amps are having their day is that the young players of today don't care about the tone of grant green or charlie christian or bb king or albert king. They don't have the legacy of tube amp listening that the average ~40-50 year old on this forum has.

The reason we like tube amps better is that *THAT* is pretty much all we heard growing up.

I paid $1200 for my ax8 and that's way cheaper than any of the boutique amps I've been through and I never have to mess with tubes.

Originally Posted by Longways to Go

Rhetorical question: If everybody moves on to Modellers, who's gonna develop the next great sounding tube amp to model from? I don't think that scenario ends very well.

I got onto the Fender Mustang bandwagon early on, but quickly tired of it -- I couldn't deal with the swirly digital artifact sound. I'm sure everything sounds better now, especially the high dollar stuff. And from what I've seen the best stuff is pretty expensive. $2K on a Kemper vs $2K on a handwired Fender? I'd bank on the Fender every time in the long run.

I'm happy being the guy that waits until the current high dollar state of the art modeller is a one dollar app on a cheap smart phone.

Currently, I'm more interested in the rise of small class D SS amps, and the tube pre/SS power platforms.

**entresz** · 10-13-2016, 06:32 PM

I've never had a need for modelling. My Quilter does a great job of getting some convincing tubey sounds, can be as clean or as dirty as you wish. It's the ideal gigging amp. For absolutely massive cleans I have a Peavey Session 400 that both dislocates my spine and bursts eardrums. It makes for a mean extension cab for the Quilter too.

I did own a Cube 80 modelling amp, but found none of the models sounded great. The JC Clean sounded nothing at all like the JC-120 I used to have. The other models were finicky as well - it managed to be incredibly boomy yet shrill at the same time. It was impossible to get a good sound, so I sold it.

The sounds I've heard on this forum of people using the AxeFX do demonstrate that modelling can produce some seriously good sounds. An AxeFX is obviously in another league to a Roland Cube/GT pedal. It's technology that is constantly improving and already is delivering some impressive results.

**Cunamara** · 10-13-2016, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by agentsmith

The reason we like tube amps better is that *THAT* is pretty much all we heard growing up..

I tried that argument once on r.m.m.g.j and about got clubbed over the head with a Twin Reverb.

**agentsmith** · 10-13-2016, 09:16 PM

p.s. regarding hep-to-the-jive's comment that maybe a modeler would come in handy if you are playing in a cover band but why would you need a modeler for a jazz gig?

Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Al Di Meola? Do these names ring a bell? They were popular jazz/fusion bands from about 40 years ago. Surprisingly, jazz and jazz guitar has occasionally strayed into territory beyond a big archtop , a zoot suit and an upright bassist spinning his bass around.

If all you do is play archtops with floating pickups and solo guitar, I agree that a modeling amp is overkill but to suggest that it's "unnecessary" unless you play in a cover band is a silly and naive statement IMO

**Bach5G** · 10-13-2016, 09:46 PM

Frfr?

**aboutIt** · 10-13-2016, 10:26 PM

Ok, setting aside longevity concerns... I'm less interested in an argument than in learning from those who are making modeling work for them. Can you guys share the details of your rigs, live and studio? What works and what mistakes you've made that those of us who are interested can learn from? Ears and mind are open...

**ThatRhythmMan** · 10-13-2016, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bach5G

Frfr?

FRFR = full range, flat response

**Alder Statesman** · 10-13-2016, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by aboutIt

Ok, setting aside longevity concerns... I'm less interested in an argument than in learning from those who are making modeling work for them. Can you guys share the details of your rigs, live and studio? What works and what mistakes you've made that those of us who are interested can learn from? Ears and mind are open...

In my case, both with my former Mustang and now with my GT-100, the key is not downloading patches, but creating my own from the simplest level and then building from there.

As I mentioned above, I use the 4 cable method with my GT-100 anf my Super Sonic 22. This allows me to complete avoid using any of the amp models to color the tube preamp of the SS22. I also can color the tone by modeling the amp, speaker cab and cabinet mic'ing.

To start, the input for the guitar must be calibrate to make certain the signal is on the brink of clipping. The procedure is not found in any of the GT-100 manuals, but as is so often the case, YouTube helped alot

The looper can be set to "patch edit" mode. This is where things really can get cool. I have a blank patch which has no modeling our any effect enabled. Using the looper, I record up to forty seconds of a tune be it mellow jazz, blues with an edge or a rock standard. Now I play back the loop continously and decide if I want to use an amp model or stick with the unmodeled SS22. The looper plays back with any adjustments made to any parameter so I can focus on the adjustments without having to play the guitar. The looped playback gives a consistency. After I select a preamp, the dial in gain, next EQ the loop. I then decide if a want a modeled speaker and mic'ing or stick with the 12" speaker in the SS22. Now double back and fine tune it. From there I calibrate any effects.

The process can take an hour, so it is best to do when I have the house to myself as the continuously repeating can drive family members to distraction.

With the GT-100, I can have a patch for every tune in my repertoire. I can create playlists to allow me to easily run through an entire session with custom patches for every piece. Works well at the home studio and hope to get out in public with it soon.

**medblues** · 10-13-2016, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by aboutIt

Ok, setting aside longevity concerns... I'm less interested in an argument than in learning from those who are making modeling work for them. Can you guys share the details of your rigs, live and studio? What works and what mistakes you've made that those of us who are interested can learn from? Ears and mind are open...

Line 6 HD500X into Alto TS110s (stereo). Steep learning curve. It is a moderate computer programming task. I was lucky to have Jim Soloway having prepared his jazz patches and I slightly tweaked a couple of presets. More than enough for my level. I learned from others by reading forums that gain staging and good pre and post EQing are very important.

**Jim Soloway** · 10-14-2016, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by aboutIt

Ok, setting aside longevity concerns... I'm less interested in an argument than in learning from those who are making modeling work for them. Can you guys share the details of your rigs, live and studio? What works and what mistakes you've made that those of us who are interested can learn from? Ears and mind are open...

This is a fairly typical recorded sound that I get from my modeler. It's a Line 6 Pod HD running a Blackface Deluxe patch with some reverb and a bit of compression. I run it direct into a Mac via the USB port into GarageBand. I think it sounds pretty good and more to the point, better than I can get with my mics given the room I'm working in. I don't have to worry about room treatment, mic placement, mic quality or soundproofing. It's connected permanently to my computer and I can be recording within a few seconds at any time and I have complete control of the volume in the room while I'm recording.

**newsense** · 10-14-2016, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Archtop Bill

In my case, both with my former Mustang and now with my GT-100, the key is not downloading patches, but creating my own from the simplest level and then building from there.

To start, the input for the guitar must be calibrate to make certain the signal is on the brink of clipping. The procedure is not found in any of the GT-100 manuals, but as is so often the case, YouTube helped alot

The looper can be set to "patch edit" mode. This is where things really can get cool. I have a blank patch which has no modeling our any effect enabled. Using the looper, I record up to forty seconds of a tune be it mellow jazz, blues with an edge or a rock standard. Now I play back the loop continously and decide if I want to use an amp model or stick with the unmodeled SS22. The looper plays back with any adjustments made to any parameter so I can focus on the adjustments without having to play the guitar. The looped playback gives a consistency. After I select a preamp, the dial in gain, next EQ the loop. I then decide if a want a modeled speaker and mic'ing or stick with the 12" speaker in the SS22. Now double back and fine tune it. From there I calibrate any effects.

The process can take an hour, so it is best to do when I have the house to myself as the continuously repeating can drive family members to distraction.

Bill - This is good advice for a Boss GT newbie, like myself. Can you point me to the "edge of clipping" video - is this just a case of increasing the global input level gain/attenuation with all amps and FX off ?

Thx

**aboutIt** · 10-14-2016, 02:42 AM

Thanks, Archtop Bill, medblues and Jim for sharing that info. Lots of ideas to research further. And Jim, I like where you're going with your rendition of Little Wing. Thanks for the preview!

**Guitarbean25** · 10-14-2016, 03:34 AM

I can't believe some actually brought up "motherboards"

Do those even still exist?

**Guitarbean25** · 10-14-2016, 03:35 AM

Double trouble post from an iphone

**Guitarbean25** · 10-14-2016, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

This is a fairly typical recorded sound that I get from my modeler. It's a Line 6 Pod HD running a Blackface Deluxe patch with some reverb and a bit of compression. I run it direct into a Mac via the USB port into GarageBand. I think it sounds pretty good and more to the point, better than I can get with my mics given the room I'm working in. I don't have to worry about room treatment, mic placement, mic quality or soundproofing. It's connected permanently to my computer and I can be recording within a few seconds at any time and I have complete control of the volume in the room while I'm recording.

Your stuff is always inspirational

**agentsmith** · 10-14-2016, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Guitarbean25

I can't believe some actually brought up "motherboards"

Do those even still exist?

absolutely they do.

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...ronics/1048424

**vinlander** · 10-14-2016, 08:15 AM

Modellers are the future of amplification like it or not.
They have come a long way since the early days of Boss/Roland COSM and line 6 and it will just get better in the future.
Their shortcoming for me is also their strength...too many options and endless tweaking possibilities its overwhelming for guys who just like to plug in and tweak a couple knobs and that's it.
The simpler to use they will be (read good ready made usable patches not requiring a computer lesson) the more market they will take.

**Alder Statesman** · 10-14-2016, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by newsense

Bill - This is good advice for a Boss GT newbie, like myself. Can you point me to the "edge of clipping" video - is this just a case of increasing the global input level gain/attenuation with all amps and FX off ?

Thx

The key adjustment is buried in the input screen and takes some navigation to get too.

This is one of the more straightforward videos on the subject:

**agentsmith** · 10-14-2016, 09:40 AM

i didn't like the GT100 at all. I was hoping the amplifire would be a simpler modeler but alas, it was not.

I agree about the complexity. That's one of the things that really needs to be addressed.

**Alder Statesman** · 10-14-2016, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by agentsmith

i didn't like the GT100 at all. I was hoping the amplifire would be a simpler modeler but alas, it was not.

I agree about the complexity. That's one of the things that really needs to be addressed.

I really think the GT-100's downfall is the documentation and Boss' own videos. Many of the best features are not mentioned in either of these. Once I had my hands on alternative sources of information, the GT-100 really is a rewarding modeller, at least compared to the Mustang IV and and Amplitube with its various plugins.

**deselby** · 10-14-2016, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by agentsmith

I agree about the complexity. That's one of the things that really needs to be addressed.

I really think this is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Can you hear the cacophony if the flexibility wasn't there. If you really want to dig in it can be a bottomless pit. In a previous incarnation I used to be a systems programmer, systems written in assembler, etc. But the skill set and knowledge required for programming a modeller are more characteristic of an audio engineer. Which makes sense.

On the other hand a deep dive is not requisite. I have spent the princely sum of $30 and have about 120 presets at my disposal. Of which I use maybe 3 or 4. I have tweaked them a bit to meet my needs. In part to adjust basic eq and also to match a couple of different guitars. I have no interest in becoming an audio engineer:)

Yet I am astounded by the effect of impulse responses (IRs). Much as different speakers and different cabinets have a pronounced effect on the sound produced by a regular amp, the IRs make a marked difference on the sound produced by a particular amp type in a modeller.

I am really taken with the sound Jim Hall got on the album Jazz Guitar. You can hear the amp but also the unamplified sound of the guitar. My guess is that both were miked. I use an acoustic IR and no amp model to amplify my acoustic. It has a K&K pure mini. It produces the best directly amplified acoustic sound I have achieved to date. I am going to experiment and try blending a speaker IR and an acoustic IR in my DAW and see what happens. I'm not holding my breath but am interested at the outcome.

I've had the modeller for about a year now. Initially overwhelmed by the technology, for the last 9 months I have used it much as I would any amp. I found the sounds I want and use them. And everything fits in my gig bag.

**agentsmith** · 10-14-2016, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Archtop Bill

I really think the GT-100's downfall is the documentation and Boss' own videos. Many of the best features are not mentioned in either of these. Once I had my hands on alternative sources of information, the GT-100 really is a rewarding modeller, at least compared to the Mustang IV and and Amplitube with its various plugins.

No, i think the downfall is that sound. It's just not very amp like. Unfortunately, boss has laid an egg with virtually every guitar product they've made in the last 25 years from synths to pedals. They are just not well designed, thought out, and are mediocre sounding.

The guitar synths have actually gotten worse in tracking over time.