Guitar Amp Modellers

[Jim Soloway]

I used a modelling rig for several years. I love it for recording and it's easy to control when it's hooked to my computer but I really found it awkward to use as a live rig. I'm back to recording with it but for ease of use and fine tuning my tone, I'd much rather use an amp with a couple simple pedals

[agentsmith]

My major problem with modeling amps is, if they die, you pretty much just have to buy a new one.

Not true at all. Both the kemper and axefx are very modular are easily repaired.

I had a TC Electronics bass amp that just up and quit one day. An amp tech told me that 99% of the time, it's the motherboard, and it would cost as much to repair as to buy a new one.

That has nothing to do with the subject matter.

Also, modeling amps are products of the age of planned obsoecence. How often does the manufacturer expect you to replace it, and what are they doing to insure that? There are 50+ year old tube amps that are still running great (with proper maintenance, of course).

It doesn't matter because the axefx is already close enough that I'm willing to bet none of you guys could tell the diff in a blindfold test. In fact, when I posted this clip last year, folks thought it was a mic'd guitar and in fact, it was a direct recording.

I've got a little 5 watt Vox modeler that's nice for practice, but I think a good solid state or tube amp is a better bet in the long run.

I think a modeling amp makes sense if you're in a cover band and you need to access a lot of sounds. But most players - jazz players in particular - only use a couple of sounds, and I figure, why buy an imitation when you can get the real thing?

Disagree. If you play anything other than standards, a modeling amp is worth its weight in gold. And even if you only play standards, the modeling amps tubes and speakers never go bad, microphonic or need re-biasing.

[agentsmith]

I used a modelling rig for several years. I love it for recording and it's easy to control when it's hooked to my computer but I really found it awkward to use as a live rig. I'm back to recording with it but for ease of use and fine tuning my tone, I'd much rather use an amp with a couple simple pedals

My ax8 isn't awkward at all. i just plug it right into a PA or bass rig. Couldn't be simpler.

[agentsmith]

That means you need a bass right or a PA in addition to your modeler. That's not a simple or convenient rig in my small world.

No, you just need an amp and speaker or combo. It sounds fine into almost any guitar or bass amp that is decent.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I'm with agentsmith on this one. I've been dabbling in dedicated amp modelers since the early days of Line6 POD and Johnson J-station. The AxeFX/AX8 has really nailed it (I prefer these over the Kemper).

These things have revolutionized my live rig. I can either plug straight into a PA or an FRFR amp and plug in my volume/expression pedal and I'm ready to go. Plus it all fits in a messenger type bag and weighs less than 20 pounds.


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[AmalgamProxy]

I used to be a metalhead, so it was a 5150II and Marshall 1960AV and a pod xt then x3 then hd pro then hd desktop then axe fx ultra. I kept the 5150 for a long time, he was called Voldemort, he who shall not be sold. But I got tired of metal and did an Alex Skolnick. I sold all my rack gear, amps and cabs, recording studio equipment. Sold all the 7 string ernie ball perruccis I had and the 5150 to a 16 year kid, now it's all hollows and still the axe fx. Love that thing. It can do screaming death metal and wes montgomery. I just use a set of near fields and I have never desired a tube amp since. I don't regret at all selling my amps. Even had a Marshall and Mesa head. No more. Love the fractal.

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[TedBPhx]

For inexpensive modeling I like the Fender Mustang or the multitude of apps available on the iDevices. Bias amps & Fx are the best of that bunch.

[Jabberwocky]

Will the real Mr. Jack Zucker please raise his hand?

[vernon]

Really... haha!

[AmalgamProxy]

Got a Fender Mustang too, that thing is a sweet little amp. Love it.

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[aboutIt]

I don't doubt they can deliver the sonic goods. Just their longevity, especially considering price. It's a computer, after all, albeit with carefully purpose selected components. That said, I also have great respect for the playing and experience of Jack Z. I want to be convinced; I do... The versatility aspect is a no-brainer, I agree. My confidence in the computer industry as currently modeled is pretty low. I'm also a huge Herbie Hancock fan, so I get the pioneer spirit of it all. More vids, please, Jack!

[Herbie]

Modelers, blahh, too many knobs, possible amps, speaker, effects and all shit.

I rather play thru my straight forward tube amp – and chase the right combination of pre-tube types (12AX7 + 12AX7 or 12AY7 + 5751 or...), power tubes (NOS or new, Russian or US or Czech or Chinese, Siemens or Golden Lion or JJ or ...) and best speaker (alnico, ceramic or neo, hemp cone or not, efficient or no, jensen-type or celestion-type etc etc). It is so much simpler!

(If I was under 40 I would put a smiley here!)

[aboutIt]

Go for it, Herbie. Smileys are over-40 safe.

[Alder Statesman]

I don't doubt they can deliver the sonic goods. Just their longevity, especially considering price. It's a computer, after all, albeit with carefully purpose selected components. That said, I also have great respect for the playing and experience of Jack Z. I want to be convinced; I do... The versatility aspect is a no-brainer, I agree. My confidence in the computer industry as currently modeled is pretty low. I'm also a huge Herbie Hancock fan, so I get the pioneer spirit of it all. More vids, please, Jack!

The Mustang V2's seem to be holding up pretty well after about four years in service.

[BigToe]

I'm now using an axefx II and AX8 for everything. I sold all my tube amps and SS combos.

do you have a preference over these two devices?

[agentsmith]

I don't doubt they can deliver the sonic goods. Just their longevity, especially considering price. It's a computer, after all, albeit with carefully purpose selected components. That said, I also have great respect for the playing and experience of Jack Z. I want to be convinced; I do... The versatility aspect is a no-brainer, I agree. My confidence in the computer industry as currently modeled is pretty low. I'm also a huge Herbie Hancock fan, so I get the pioneer spirit of it all. More vids, please, Jack!

The point is that it's irrelevant whether the technology will move forward. It's already at a point where it's so close to tube amps that most musicians (including many on this thread pooh-poohing the technology) likely couldn't tell the difference.

It's not like a general purpose computer because in that scenario, apps are developed which will continually push the envelope of speed and power. In the case of the axefx, the technology is already mature enough that it works today.

Future modelers may gain that extra 4-5% or they may be easier to use or capable of layering more amps and effects together but for a basic amp tone, it's already *THERE* today.

[newsense]

About three weeks ago, I thought my luck had changed when a young lady, clad in nightie and dressing gown, knocked on my apartment door at 9.45 pm. You guessed it - she asked me to turn down my amp. As a recent resident in the apartment block, I was confident that no one could hear my inept attempts at jazz guitar stardom. However I was wrong - which horrified me. I did consider asking her in to explain how if I turned my Fender Super Champ volume control below its current setting of "3", no sound would come out of my carefully selected Cannabis Rex speaker. But, she really didn't look in the mood for being educated (did I mention I am a professor ?).

This was an epiphany moment - what I needed was headphones ! Rather then continue to argue with myself on whether I needed an new tube amp to spice up my playing, I immediately decided to go digital. I conveniently forgot that the Cube 40 languishing in the corner had a phones output and the next day dropped by my local, inappropriately-named, PMT music store and picked up what I believed to be a state-of the-art modeller at very reasonable cost. This was a Boss GT-001. No, its not a misprint - this is the desktop version of the floor-dwelling GT-100.

OK, this is not a Kemperer or Axe-FX, but it serves as a very convenient and minimal cost entry into the world of modelling. With the demise of the old desktop PODs, this seems like the best, low cost option for desktop modelling. Unfortunately over the last three weeks, I have been travelling a lot and have not had time to really come to a firm opinion on whether this is a long term solution for me, but here are some early, malformed opinions:

First off, I'm a hobbyist who likes to play straight ahead jazz, plus modern and fusiony stuff (from Sco to Stern) and blues (Ford, Carlton, ....), all the way through to an Allen Hinds kind of tone. So a modeller is appealing in that it might let me do all that without having a pedal board as large as an aircraft carrier. However, after 3 weeks I'm still searching for my favourite clean sound - I've auditioned various amps, including the "Natural Clean", the Twin, the JC120, the DRRI - and, perhaps the best, the Pro Reverb - all modified with various flavours of reverb, a little compression and some parametric EQ.

Am I satisfied ? Hell no ! But this may be that my phones (Sennheiser HD455s) are only 32 ohm impedance, whilst the output impedance of the GT-001 is 45 ohm. The base strings sound exceedingly springy (boing), hence new high impedance phones are on the way. I may also use this aural dissatisfaction to prove to myself that my current straight jazz guitar (the Peerless Gagmeister Jazz), sadly, does not perform acoustically as well as it now looks and I need to replace it (that's another future thread). However, I have to admit that when played through my desktop monitors (Edirol MA15Ds) the tones are actually as good as I need (and an order of magnitude better than Joe's on the Virtuoso album).

But here's the scary part - if it has taken me three weeks to find a good clean jazz tone, how long is it going to take me to find Allen Hinds inside this cute desktop monster ?

[aboutIt]

The point is that it's irrelevant whether the technology will move forward. It's already at a point where it's so close to tube amps that most musicians (including many on this thread pooh-poohing the technology) likely couldn't tell the difference.

It's not like a general purpose computer because in that scenario, apps are developed which will continually push the envelope of speed and power. In the case of the axefx, the technology is already mature enough that it works today.

Future modelers may gain that extra 4-5% or they may be easier to use or capable of layering more amps and effects together but for a basic amp tone, it's already *THERE* today.

Thanks, Jack. I'm not debating that it's here today. I'm more concerned about it being gone tomorrow, with regard to the longevity of the components and support of any software issues that could arise and not be solved by a factory reset button. This stuff isn't built to last or be repaired. It's built to be replaced with the next big thing. That's all. It's akin to what's possible for the modern day car owner, compared to what pops and Gramps could do themselves (or pay someone else to do for a reasonable sum).

[agentsmith]

do you have a preference over these two devices?

The axefx II is better in regards to the capabilities. You can do multiple amps which can be cool for doing things like running a fender on one stereo side and a SS amp on the other side.

And you can have more effects. You can layer multi-delays which is nice for powerful chorus effects such as what allan holdsworth uses.

The AX8 can only do 1 amp at a time and only 1 multi delay at a time. It's also got less horsepower in general so there are some effect chains that run fine on the axefx II that cannot be run with the AX8.

However, I have found ways around the limitations and the form factor and convenience are HUGE. I keep the axefx ii in my studio now.

[agentsmith]

Thanks, Jack. I'm not debating that it's here today. I'm more concerned about it being gone tomorrow, with regard to the longevity of the components and support of any software issues that could arise and not be solved by a factory reset button. This stuff isn't built to last or be repaired. It's built to be replaced with the next big thing. That's all. It's akin to what's possible for the modern day car owner, compared to what pops and Gramps could do themselves (or pay someone else to do for a reasonable sum).

They still support the original axefx in terms of firmware, fixes and repairs and it came out in 2006. I'm not so sure vacuum tubes will still be around in 10 years so I'm not sure how one can claim that they will always be around and repairable.

At some point, you have to come to grips with the fact that certain technologies are expendable commodities and will just not be around in the future. For this reason, I always buy used.

Incidentally, the original axefx standards are going for around $1100-$1200 on ebay. I paid $1200ish back in 2006 for mine. I doubt your typical boutique tube amp retains that level of value...

[aboutIt]

The Mustang V2's seem to be holding up pretty well after about four years in service.

Thanks, AB, that's not too shabby. And the price is much more in line if it does crap out in the next few years. But when it does, from what I hear, it's landfill.

[aboutIt]

They still support the original axefx in terms of firmware, fixes and repairs and it came out in 2006. I'm not so sure vacuum tubes will still be around in 10 years so I'm not sure how one can claim that they will always be around and repairable.

At some point, you have to come to grips with the fact that certain technologies are expendable commodities and will just not be around in the future. For this reason, I always buy used.

Incidentally, the original axefx standards are going for around $1100-$1200 on ebay. I paid $1200ish back in 2006 for mine. I doubt your typical boutique tube amp retains that level of value...

Agreed. I did say analog, not tube, but yeah, those are fair points backed by experience. Thanks!

[Herbie]

Go for it, Herbie. Smileys are over-40 safe.

Thanks for encouragement! But I am not smiley safe!

I mean, thinking of a smiley, I can't get over the thought that I should be able to write my thoughts so that I would not need any emoticons. Even when I use not-my-mother-language english.

But hey, that's my problem!

[rob taft]

I have owned a Kemper since early 2012, I have had zero problems with the device. I don't have some of the LED problems that some of the earlier units had but Kemper repaired those that did even those outside of the warrant period which is 3 years.

I still have my tube amps. A SF ProReverb and a Fargen Mini Plex Mark II as well as a few SS amps. I use the Kemper primarily because (A) it is reliable, (2) it provides a wide variety of tones and (3) I don't have to use any pedals and (4) I'm not dealing with NOS tubes, Soviet Tubes etc. Unlike the AXFX, the Kemper is profile dependent i.e. find the profile that works the best for you with the given guitar. To be honest, I probably only use about 5 of the profiles on a regular basis and the one I use for everything from classical to jazz is a profile of a Fender Vibroverb that I have tweaked to individual tones i.e. no gain, more gain, reverb, delay etc.

Another benefit to these devices is the ability to go straight into the desk or audio interface for recording work or direct to FOH in live situations.

I'm not posting this to change anyone's mind. If you are happy with your current tube or SS amp. Good for you but the day when modeling or "profiling" devices can't compete with analog or SS amps are over.

[Bach5G]

Where's an inexpensive place to start (seeing that AX7s and Kempers are very expensive)?