Evolution of the Gibson Johnny Smith

[deacon Mark]

I have one of the Heritage built New Yorkers like SS and mine does have the full contact fingerboard tension as he notes. My Heritage Johnny Smith also has the full contact extension per the photo I posted. Now the crazy thing is the Heritage NY does not sound like the Heritage JS. There as some similarities as can be expect but generally, they sound pretty different. The 18-inch body probably has a lot to do with it as well as other aspects. If fact the idea that the sound of the highs is transmitted better per Smith himself, with this feature is not particularly evident in the Heritage NY. My Heritage NY has a full cutting sound with better mid-range sound than the HJS, and it has a nice crisp bass much more present.

I would be curious of anyone has an acoustic Super 400 and Gibson Johnny Smith and can describe the differences. They should be miles apart, but you never know.

[SierraTango]

CC: I know you own a Benedetto. What model is that?

JS: I own the Cremona model and it's just exquisite. I have owned it since the early 1980's and have only played it for myself, but it is a joy to behold.

[58flame]

Here is how the fretboard extension on Johnny’s 1955 D’Angelico sits.


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I think it's important to note that the top on the 55 D'Angelico that Chuck has is not the original top on Johnny's guitar. I suspect, hopefully reasonably, that the original top had full contact with the neck. Johnny was very specific about this feature on the Gibson.

[Cunamara]

Yes, that's right. The original top was cracked and sent back to D'Angelico for replacement. Johnny used the guitar for a time with just a sealer coat on the top as he needed it before John D could properly finish the top. A burst was eventually done. I think one of Johnny's albums has a cover photo with the natural top.

[213Cobra]

Interestingly, here's the fretboard extension that Johnny Smith signed off on (in this guitar's case, literally, on the back of the headstock) for the Guild-Benedetto Johnny Smith Award.



Decades after his dispute with Guild luthiers and Al Dronge over the fretboard extension glue-down and the cutaway method deviating from D'Angelico's, Smith admitted there was nothing wrong with the original Guild Johnny Smith guitar, and that he was being stubborn. In the final version of his jazzbox, he was cool with a short lift under the last two frets and what's left of the ebony beyond that.

Phil

[ThatRhythmMan]

Yes, that's right. The original top was cracked and sent back to D'Angelico for replacement. Johnny used the guitar for a time with just a sealer coat on the top as he needed it before John D could properly finish the top. A burst was eventually done. I think one of Johnny's albums has a cover photo with the natural top.

That’s correct! In fact it’s on two album covers without the burst added.


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[58flame]

Interestingly, here's the fretboard extension that Johnny Smith signed off on (in this guitar's case, literally, on the back of the headstock) for the Guild-Benedetto Johnny Smith Award.



Decades after his dispute with Guild luthiers and Al Dronge over the fretboard extension glue-down and the cutaway method deviating from D'Angelico's, Smith admitted there was nothing wrong with the original Guild Johnny Smith guitar, and that he was being stubborn. In the final version of his jazzbox, he was cool with a short lift under the last two frets and what's left of the ebony beyond that.

Phil

Here are 2 more G/B JSAs.

[Marty Grass]

Here's one ordered by Vince Lewis for one of his friends. It came with two pickguards, one with a Floating #3 (which I'm a fan of) and a Bennedetto pickup (hotter yet quite cool). Vince is playing it but it was owned by his bass player. Like most shocking things, once you get to live with it, the green is okay.

From D'Angelico to Gibson to Heritage to Benedetto. I'm waiting for the heavy metal version.

BTW, I just reordered the complete Roost collection again. I had listened to it years ago and gave it (probably sold it) to a friend. I listened recently to some of his playing and decided I want to have on hand as much of his work as I can. As I mentioned earlier, my guitar teacher when I was a teen had a GJS while he was a music major at Western Michigan University. He treated it as the most precious thing on God's green earth. That branded my soul on the model. But it turned out there were to be quite a few variants. 18", 17", and a 16" without his name on it. The scale lengths shifted. The pickups varied. And even a green one emerged. The fretboard extension was supported in at least two different ways. The scale lengths varied some. The body depth, tailpieces, and a few other things also differed.

What I can say is that I played most of the variants (not the 16"). All were very good instruments IMO.

My guess is that he was most at home with his D'Angelico. I could be wrong.

[skykomishone]

Marty, that would be perfect for St. Patrick's day parties!

[BebopFan]

As a result of reading the responses to my original post, I have decided to try to narrow down the year when my Johnny Smith was made. As you can see in the attachment, it has an orange oval label on the inside back which initially made me think it was built in the 1960’s; however, recently I discovered a very faint impression of the serial number and the words, “MADE IN U.S.A.” stamped on the back of the headstock. This seems to imply it was built no earlier than 1970. When the serial number, 952176, was used in the 1970’s, my understanding is that it appeared on instruments made between 1970 and 1972. Consequently, since I assume that the orange label appeared no later than 1970, my best guess is that my guitar left the shop sometime that year. (Since Norlin was in control in 1970, their change in construction practices may account for why my guitar was made with a cantilevered neck block.)

Any thoughts?

[58flame]

As a result of reading the responses to my original post, I have decided to try to narrow down the year when my Johnny Smith was made. As you can see in the attachment, it has an orange oval label on the inside back which initially made me think it was built in the 1960’s; however, recently I discovered a very faint impression of the serial number and the words, “MADE IN U.S.A.” stamped on the back of the headstock. This seems to imply it was built no earlier than 1970. When the serial number, 952176, was used in the 1970’s, my understanding is that it appeared on instruments made between 1970 and 1972. Consequently, since I assume that the orange label appeared no later than 1970, my best guess is that my guitar left the shop sometime that year. (Since Norlin was in control in 1970, their change in construction practices may account for why my guitar was made with a cantilevered neck block.)

Any thoughts?

Is there any chance this guitar is a 2nd?

[jads57]

Is the maple sides and back plain maple or fancy figured variety maple? Norlin also used a different label than the orange ones,from what I remember.

[BebopFan]

Both the sides and back are highly-flamed maple.

[Cunamara]

It's a mystery! But this group might solve it... A couple of thoughts.

First, is this body really a JS or a Citation that got repurposed? There is precedent: according to Lin Flanagan's book, Johnny's last Gibson- a natural- was actually a Citation that was diverted on the assembly line. Johnny had sent back his first GJS, a sunburst, for work and it disappeared somehow so Gibson pulled a Citation in process to send to him. Did the Citation have the JS style neck with the neck block extending to the end of the fingerboard, or is the end of the neck raised clear of the top a la the L-5, ES-175, etc.? I've never seen a specific photo of the end of a Citation neck

Second, Gibson was just sometimes inconsistent. According to Johnny, they did not have tooling for the GJS model and so each was slightly different. Specifically he stated that the GJS necks were done by hand and varied a lot. Obviously a perfectionist, this must have bugged him and was one of the reasons he pulled his endorsement.

[58flame]

It's a mystery! But this group might solve it... A couple of thoughts.

First, is this body really a JS or a Citation that got repurposed? There is precedent: according to Lin Flanagan's book, Johnny's last Gibson- a natural- was actually a Citation that was diverted on the assembly line. Johnny had sent back his first GJS, a sunburst, for work and it disappeared somehow so Gibson pulled a Citation in process to send to him. Did the Citation have the JS style neck with the neck block extending to the end of the fingerboard, or is the end of the neck raised clear of the top a la the L-5, ES-175, etc.? I've never seen a specific photo of the end of a Citation neck

Second, Gibson was just sometimes inconsistent. According to Johnny, they did not have tooling for the GJS model and so each was slightly different. Specifically he stated that the GJS necks were done by hand and varied a lot. Obviously a perfectionist, this must have bugged him and was one of the reasons he pulled his endorsement.

This mystery could potentially be solved with the right connections.

Smithsonian request verification

[Sam Sherry]

This mystery could potentially be solved with the right connections.

Smithsonian request verification

In the world of the Smithsonian Institution -- where time is reckoned in centuries, millennia, eons and geological eras -- "1967" actually is plausibly "ca. 1962."

But to gearheads . . .
> Serial # 897087 shows up on GuitarHQ as "1967 or 1969"
> "Finger" tailpiece reflects "1970s+ part"
> BJB pickup -- not an OG "Johnny Smith" pickup! -- would be late 80s+

That last item is telling. Here's Mr. Johnny Smith, who was well-known for harshing on guitar companies generally and Gibson in particular for not sticking strictly to his personal spec on his personal model. Here, somewhere off to the side, is a late 1960s Johnny Smith pickup which was designed in actual collaboration with Mr. JS to deliver his desired sound.
And there, in his hands, on his own guitar, is the BJB "not-Johnny-Smith no matter what the label says!" pickup . . .
Who knew!

[ThatRhythmMan]

In the world of the Smithsonian Institution -- where time is reckoned in centuries, millennia, eons and geological eras -- "1967" actually is plausibly "ca. 1962."

But to gearheads . . .
> Serial # 897087 shows up on GuitarHQ as "1967 or 1969"
> "Finger" tailpiece reflects "1970s+ part"
> BJB pickup -- not an OG "Johnny Smith" pickup! -- would be late 80s+

That last item is telling. Here's Mr. Johnny Smith, who was well-known for harshing on guitar companies generally and Gibson in particular for not sticking strictly to his personal spec on his personal model. Here, somewhere off to the side, is a late 1960s Johnny Smith pickup which was designed in actual collaboration with Mr. JS to deliver his desired sound.
And there, in his hands, on his own guitar, is the BJB "not-Johnny-Smith no matter what the label says!" pickup . . .
Who knew!

A number in the 800000s could also be somewhere between 1973 and 1975.

FWIW there was also a fingers tailpiece on the D’A for a while.


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[58flame]

In the world of the Smithsonian Institution -- where time is reckoned in centuries, millennia, eons and geological eras -- "1967" actually is plausibly "ca. 1962."

But to gearheads . . .
> Serial # 897087 shows up on GuitarHQ as "1967 or 1969"
> "Finger" tailpiece reflects "1970s+ part"
> BJB pickup -- not an OG "Johnny Smith" pickup! -- would be late 80s+

That last item is telling. Here's Mr. Johnny Smith, who was well-known for harshing on guitar companies generally and Gibson in particular for not sticking strictly to his personal spec on his personal model. Here, somewhere off to the side, is a late 1960s Johnny Smith pickup which was designed in actual collaboration with Mr. JS to deliver his desired sound.
And there, in his hands, on his own guitar, is the BJB "not-Johnny-Smith no matter what the label says!" pickup . . .
Who knew!

It's a 70s guitar. The Smithsonian is wrong.

[Marty Grass]

I looked at my Heritages. All have support out to the last fret. Even their ghost built Gretsch Synchromatic does.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Here, somewhere off to the side, is a late 1960s Johnny Smith pickup which was designed in actual collaboration with Mr. JS to deliver his desired sound. And there, in his hands, on his own guitar, is the BJB "not-Johnny-Smith no matter what the label says!" pickup . . .
Who knew!

I’m certainly not an expert on JS models. But I don’t recall ever seeing or reading about a JS with a jack in the rim. Yet that’s what’s shown in that Smithsonian picture. What gives?

[gionnio]

My 1968

[wintermoon]

I’m certainly not an expert on JS models. But I don’t recall ever seeing or reading about a JS with a jack in the rim. Yet that’s what’s shown in that Smithsonian picture. What gives?

A lot of people retrofit them to the rim.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

A lot of people retrofit them to the rim.

That’s for sure. But the one under discussion is in the Smithsonian. I’d like to think that they validate the originality of the items they choose to archive. I should have said that I’ve never seen a factory original JS with a rim mounted jack.

[wintermoon]

That’s for sure. But the one under discussion is in the Smithsonian. I’d like to think that they validate the originality of the items they choose to archive. I should have said that I’ve never seen a factory original JS with a rim mounted jack.

They get plenty wrong, as has been mentioned the guitar pictured isn't even a '62 as they state, it's a later model Smith w Oettinger t.p.
The truss rod cover is a 70s type and the BJB pickup wasn't invented until the late 70s, there's no overlay/stinger on the back of the headstock, etc....
The jack isn't even in the usual spot that Gibson mounted them on electrics which is a little lower on the rim than this guitar.

[Cunamara]

JS's kids gave the guitar to the Smithsonian, so that provenance seems pretty good.