Strap Button on Johnny Smith's 1957 D'Angelico

[Greentone]

Joe,

Piano players...no space.

Boy, howdy! I have gigged with my share. There are two distinct camps--(1) those who _can_ play with guitar players and (2) those who _cannot_. Group one is sheer delight. These men and women have big ears, listen to what the guitarist is doing when soloing and comping, and play accordingly--and, I might add, vice versa. This results in great interplay and great music. Think: Herb Ellis/Oscar Peterson, Jim Hall/Bill Evans, Anybody/Chick Corea (Corea can play with anyone and make them sound terrific). Group two includes pianists who unfortunately don't really adjust much from when they are playing at home. (There are a lot of guitarists like this, too! They play 5 and 6-note barre chords and step all over the bassist and pianist. See if they get a second gig with that band.)

I have my share of gigs with both types. I have tried mightily not to be a "group 2" guitarist.

Oh, yeah. No pianist gives you much room on the bandstand.

There's two types of space.

[2bornot2bop]

JD, I understand you're a JS fan, but I'm curious, how in your mind do you reconcile the fact JS kept someone's guitar?

[2bornot2bop]

Joe,

Piano players...no space.

Boy, howdy! I have gigged with my share. There are two distinct camps--(1) those who _can_ play with guitar players and (2) those who _cannot_. Group one is sheer delight. These men and women have big ears, listen to what the guitarist is doing when soloing and comping, and play accordingly--and, I might add, vice versa. This results in great interplay and great music. Think: Herb Ellis/Oscar Peterson, Jim Hall/Bill Evans, Anybody/Chick Corea (Corea can play with anyone and make them sound terrific). Group two includes pianists who unfortunately don't really adjust much from when they are playing at home. (There are a lot of guitarists like this, too! They play 5 and 6-note barre chords and step all over the bassist and pianist. See if they get a second gig with that band.)

I have my share of gigs with both types. I have tried mightily not to be a "group 2" guitarist.

Oh, yeah. No pianist gives you much room on the bandstand.

There's two types of space.

is it a fair statement to say that any pianist who isn't allowing space isn't listening, except to himself?

[JazzNote]

I swear to you that when he came up with this stuff, he channeled his inner Mr T. and said, "I pity the fool who tries this one.." The most beautiful run in this song starts out with one of those impossible to play chords
14
12
13
12
x
14

Into a pentitonic scale, into some thirds than into a 3 note chime harmonic fretted on the 8th fret but picked with the back of your fingernail and muted with that same fingers fingertip. Every difficult thing, shoehorned into 2 bars.. I love him, but he was ridiculous..
JD

Chances are big that it didn't feel so difficult for him, that it was just natural to do so. Musicians develop habits which become very personal and they can reach virtuosity on a very high level with them because these habits tend to become second nature. I'm not trying to "diminish" JS's tremendous qualities, just trying to say that you are copying something which for him probably was a fusion of things practiced at different stages and therefore logical choices. For anybody else it's very difficult and it will be a long long way to become second nature (if ever at all). BTW i started noticing more and more his influence in the playing of some of my favorite guitarists.

[JazzNote]

is it a fair statement to say that any pianist who isn't allowing space isn't listening, except to himself?

I bet there are plenty out there who don't even listen to themselves ;-)

[Max405]

JD, I understand you're a JS fan, but I'm curious, how in your mind do you reconcile the fact JS kept someone's guitar?

That makes me like him even more. "Give me that guitar you bitch. And stop your whining..." JUST KIDDING..
My father and his friends Vinny Correo and Dave McLean (who later on was my guidance counselor in grammar school) use to go see him at the Birdland. My father and Vinny said he was the nicest guy they ever met. Mr McLean was a trumpet player and played with him a number of times and said he could do no wrong. I have a cover of a menu that he signed for my father matted and framed that hangs on my wall. Johnny, Elvis, Jackie Wilson, Tony Williams and Joe Pass were like saints in my house. That's how I grew up. I can't think anything bad about any one of them.
Every time I've ever seen him interviewed, he always came acrossed as an angel. We don't know the whole story. I heard he borrowed that guitar because his was burned in a fire. How do we know the Indian giver, oh, I'm sorry I mean the guy he borrowed the guitar from didn't tell him to just keep it? And he got him a new one. I mean, how many guitars do you need right?

Chances are big that it didn't feel so difficult for him, that it was just natural to do so. Musicians develop habits which become very personal and they can reach virtuosity on a very high level with them because these habits tend to become second nature. I'm not trying to "diminish" JS's tremendous qualities, just trying to say that you are copying something which for him probably was a fusion of things practiced at different stages and therefore logical choices. For anybody else it's very difficult and it will be a long long way to become second nature (if ever at all). BTW i started noticing more and more his influence in the playing of some of my favorite guitarists.

JazzNote, you are right. He was self taught and he had the gene.. The gene that makes you great.. Like Micheal Jordan, Babe Ruth, Serena Williams, Muhammad Ali and George Benson to name a few..
I realize I do copy the hell out of him. To me it's an accomplishment and it's something I do for my father. When I was young and I was heavily influenced by the style of Al DiMeola and Eddie VanHalen I actually tried learning Joe Pass and Johnny Smith songs. I couldn't do it. Not even 5 seconds. Now that I am older, found a tremendous amount of patience after becoming a dad myself, I can do what it takes to Copy my idols. To me it's an honor to perform note for note tributes to my idols. Like I said, I do this for my father who passed away years ago. I didn't have a great relationship with him. He hated when I played rock and soul. He said that was "Divagare" or digression. He always wanted me to play the classics like the greats did. So I do it for him.

[sgcim]

No pontification Joe, you make some good points. And you paid up - earned the right - to speak about these JS guitars.
I just think the saddest part of a Johnny Smith " D'A " guitar was that D'A really never could take advantage of the JS endorsement, or anyone else's endorsements either. Being basically a 2 man shop, I get the feeling they were already building all they could build.
Gibson ( and probably no one else, before or since ) could make the endorsement work.....
I'm guessing J. D'A thought Johnny Smith a whore because he probably thought he was more trouble than he was worth......I can hear him talking to Jimmy D'A......" That ** Johnny Smith just called and wants me to build John Collins another guitar, - - next month !! ".... " Then he wants me to build the John Collins one for the old price and oh yeah he needs it in 60 days "...and then the phone rings , Jimmy D'A picks it up, listens , and says to John D'A : " John - that was John Collins - -Johnny Smith has his guitar and won't give it back, so he needs another one real quick ! ".......(( this is probably where one of them says "marone" )).
I think Jimmy D'A understood this better and pursued the Hagstrom and Fender arrangements for that reason.


Just my .02 cents.......

D'Angelico didn't seem to be interested in making a lot of money. He was perfectly content to build the amount of guitars that a two man shop could build. He had no one to support, and this was pre-inflation, so NYC was still a place where artists could afford to live in and do their work.
In the JJG interview with John Collins, JC seemed still mystified that JS borrowed his guitar, and never gave it back to him. JS ordered him another D'A, but it wasn't stated in the Flanagan book, or in the JC interview that JS paid for it.
The 'whore' incident happened when JD was in the hospital, and Jimmy D. told him about another company building a JS model guitar based on the plans of JS' D'A that JS gave the company for the guitar.
JS admitted this in an interview in GP, regardless of what he said later (to Flanagan or whomever).
Jimmy D. wanted John D. to sue JS, and John D. said, "Forget him Jimmy, he's just a whore'.

This was told to me by the guy who apprenticed with Jimmy for the longest period of time (4 to 5 years), and also went into business with Jimmy, up to the time that Fender forbade Jimmy in his contract with them, to ever associate with this fellow again.

Joe Pass pulled this crap with Jimmy D. on his Ibanez JP20 model, and Jimmy sued Ibanez, and got them to pull the JP20 off the market.

This whole thing could be made into a great movie, if we included JS' involvement with Teddy Reig and Morris Levy, who never paid JS a cent in the 50s for all those Roost LPs he made. TR and ML had strong mob ties, so we could have JS going to ML and asking him to get one of his 'friends' to rub out John D. while he's in the hospital.
Fortunately, Jimmy D. (played by a young Al Pacino) happens to be visiting John G. when 'Lefty' tried to do the dirty deed...

[Stringswinger]

This whole thing could be made into a great movie, if we included JS' involvement with Teddy Reig and Morris Levy, who never paid JS a cent in the 50s for all those Roost LPs he made. TR and ML had strong mob ties, so we could have JS going to ML and asking him to get one of his 'friends' to rub out John D. while he's in the hospital.
Fortunately, Jimmy D. (played by a young Al Pacino) happens to be visiting John G. when 'Lefty' tried to do the dirty deed...

Read Tommy James' book "Me the mob and the music" to learn more about Morris Levy and Roulette. They are making a movie of that book. My Uncle, Red Schwartz (RIP), is a major player in that story. I was glad to find out when reading the book that he was the good guy in the Roulette organization (I had known about his mob ties for years). I think that when my Uncle joined the Roulette label, Johnny Smith had already moved on to Verve. OK, now we can go

[Max405]

Tommy James waited till everybody died before he wrote about them.
Smart? Coward?

[Stringswinger]

Tommy James waited till everybody died before he wrote about them.
Smart? Coward?

Smart. If he hadn't waited, Tommy would be sleeping with the fishes....

[Cunamara]

Some of the Teddy Reig and Morris Levy stuff is covered in Flanagan's book, too. JS and the band were paid union scale for the recording sessions and that was it. This was standard practice at the time (Coltrane reportedly only received $500 for recording "Giant Steps." This, BTW, is why I have no sympathy whatsoever with Big Music getting screwed by the Internet- they spent a century screwing artists first. I feel bad about artists getting screwed a second time by the Internet, though). JS received no royalty payments from Verve, either, until Bob Yelin found out about it when he interviewed JS for Guitar Player in 1982 (I wonder if this is the interview sgcim cites). When he contacted Verve he was told roytalties would not be paid because the parent company had filed for bankruptcy. JS stopped recording because of this, apparently. Yelin was able to get Verve to cough up somehow (probably by threatening to publish the story, I suppose).

Teddy Reig had apparently promised JS that he would get the Roost royalties. At least some of the royalties were paid to JS through Reig's will when he died, IIRC; that's also in Flanagan's book but I can't find it right now.

[JazzNote]

@ Stringswinger - since this is originally a "strap button post" i ask here: your 1963 Gibson ES 175 shows the strap button on the lower side. What are possible reasons to mount it there?

[Stringswinger]

@ Stringswinger - since this is originally a "strap button post" i ask here: your 1963 Gibson ES 175 shows the strap button on the lower side. What are possible reasons to mount it there?

A previous owner put it there. It is not where I would like it, but it does not bother me enough to move it.

[sgcim]

Read Tommy James' book "Me the mob and the music" to learn more about Morris Levy and Roulette. They are making a movie of that book. My Uncle, Red Schwartz (RIP), is a major player in that story. I was glad to find out when reading the book that he was the good guy in the Roulette organization (I had known about his mob ties for years). I think that when my Uncle joined the Roulette label, Johnny Smith had already moved on to Verve. OK, now we can go

Wow Marc, you must have a fascinating perspective on the Roulette organization, being both a lawyer and a musician!
I just finished reading the new book on Morris Levy: "The Godfather of the Music Business: Morris Levy", detailing
ML's rise from a hat check boy to owner of Birdland to the owner of Roulette.
Although there's no mention of JS, many other jazz musicians are mentioned, along with your Uncle and Teddy Reig.

The author of the Levy bio ventures the opinion that Birdland may not have even been named after Charlie Parker; Levy took over a restaurant called The Chicken Shack, and wanted to give the place a name that had to do with chicken restaurants.
Your Uncle must have been quite a character!

[Stringswinger]

Wow Marc, you must have a fascinating perspective on the Roulette organization, being both a lawyer and a musician!
I just finished reading the new book on Morris Levy: "The Godfather of the Music Business: Morris Levy", detailing
ML's rise from a hat check boy to owner of Birdland to the owner of Roulette.
Although there's no mention of JS, many other jazz musicians are mentioned, along with your Uncle and Teddy Reig.

The author of the Levy bio ventures the opinion that Birdland may not have even been named after Charlie Parker; Levy took over a restaurant called The Chicken Shack, and wanted to give the place a name that had to do with chicken restaurants.
Your Uncle must have been quite a character!

My Uncle was indeed a character. He and I were pretty close. He moved to California in 1971, I followed suit in 1975. (The rest of my family is back East in the NYC-Philly area) Through him I met lots of interesting folks including Tommy James, his good friend Dick Clark and George Harrison among others. Prior to getting into the record business, he was a drummer and a disc jockey. Before that a decorated WW2 Combat vet. He died in 2001. I miss him.

I will have to get a copy of the Levy bio. My take on Roulette and the record business is that in all things, a concentration of power leads to corruption. Roulette Records is Exhibit A of that.

[lawson-stone]

My Uncle was indeed a character. He and I were pretty close. He moved to California in 1971, I followed suit in 1975. (The rest of my family is back East in the NYC-Philly area) Through him I met lots of interesting folks including Tommy James, his good friend Dick Clark and George Harrison among others. Prior to getting into the record business, he was a drummer and a disc jockey. Before that a decorated WW2 Combat vet. He died in 2001. I miss him.

I will have to get a copy of the Levy bio. My take on Roulette and the record business is that in all things, a concentration of power leads to corruption. Roulette Records is Exhibit A of that.

And by some accounts, the story of Hank Garland might also underscore this phenomenon, except in Nashville and LA or NYC.

[Max405]

Being an Italian American, it disgusts me to see the Mob romanticized so much. I think the Sopranos set my people back a 100 years. I hope this movie tells the real story and leaves its viewers routing for the good guys who fought the mob and not the bad guy pieces of garbage. We all have ties in some way or another. The fact of the matter is, "this thing" Destroyed more lives than anyone can ever imagine.
I often wondered if Johnny's favorite view of New York City (through his rear view mirror) was brought upon by the crap he most likely went through as the "talent" trying the make a living in one of the Dirtiest business environments ever.

[Stringswinger]

Being an Italian American, it disgusts me to see the Mob romanticized so much. I think the Sopranos set my people back a 100 years. I hope this movie tells the real story and leaves its viewers routing for the good guys who fought the mob and not the bad guy pieces of garbage. We all have ties in some way or another. The fact of the matter is, "this thing" Destroyed more lives than anyone can ever imagine.
I often wondered if Johnny's favorite view of New York City (through his rear view mirror) was brought upon by the crap he most likely went through as the "talent" trying the make a living in one of the Dirtiest business environments ever.

Yep, good guys like Johnny Smith, Tommy James, my Uncle Red and many others were cheated by bad guys like Morris Levy and his "associates" in the Genovese crime family. People should bear in mind that for every Italian-American mobster, there are two Italian-American good guys like Rudi Giuliani and Mario Cuomo. And the bad guys come in every national origin. Some even look respectable, like the folks in the "Council of Foreign Relations" mob, with family names like Bush and Clinton....

[Max405]

Rudy Giuliani was a great American. His Job was to Systematically dismantle the mob. He did a great job of it too.
During his historic terms as Mayor of NY, You couldn't tell the difference between NYC and Downtown Palm Springs. You could eat off the streets. Now, take a trip into Manhattan. Its as dirty and disgusting as I've ever seen it.
You can thank the 1 bad guy out of every 2 good guys for making it impossible for a great American of Italian descent from ever being the President of this great country.

Oh, By the way, I wonder.. Did strap buttons come standard on Johnny Smith Guitars? MartyGrass and I were talking about the ingenious way Johnny attached the guitar to himself at one time..




He used a rope that he threaded under the OVERHANG and placed a knot in it so it couldn't slip back through..

I guess after a period of time, that idea became sort of outdated..



So he went under the heal, into the hook..

Yep, good guys like Johnny Smith, Tommy James, my Uncle Red and many others were cheated by bad guys like Morris Levy and his "associates" in the Genovese crime family. People should bear in mind that for every Italian-American mobster, there are two Italian-American good guys like Rudi Giuliani and Mario Cuomo. And the bad guys come in every national origin. Some even look respectable, like the folks in the "Council of Foreign Relations" mob, with family names like Bush and Clinton....

[wintermoon]

"He used a rope that he threaded under the OVERHANG and placed a knot in it so it couldn't slip back through.."

quite common back in the day....

[JazzNote]

"He used a rope that he threaded under the OVERHANG and placed a knot in it so it couldn't slip back through.."

quite common back in the day....

I still do something similar with small leather bands, but i thread it all around and tie it together .... the only way to go with my phobia which does not to let me drill any holes in an instrument.

[2bornot2bop]

Rudy Giuliani was a great American. His Job was to Systematically dismantle
During his historic terms as Mayor of NY, You couldn't tell the difference between NYC and Downtown Palm Springs. You could eat off the streets. Now, take a trip into Manhattan. Its as dirty and disgusting as I've ever seen it.
You can thank the 1 bad guy out of every 2 good guys for making it impossible for a great American of Italian descent from ever being the President of this great country.

That's a matter of perspective bro, for there was this moment when as Mayor Giuliani declined to upgrade the city's radio system, as it later turned out, at the expense of fire fighters. Ironically, in the years following 911 Rudy became unelectable in part for wrapping himself in 911 at every turn - It wasn't a good look. I don't think being Italian had anything to do with Giuliani not being able to win his own party's nomination. Do you really?

[Hammertone]

Giuliani is Italian?

[Max405]

That's a matter of perspective bro, for there was this moment when as Mayor Giuliani declined to upgrade the city's radio system, as it later turned out, at the expense of fire fighters. Ironically, in the years following 911 Rudy became unelectable in part for wrapping himself in 911 at every turn - It wasn't a good look. I don't think being Italian had anything to do with Giuliani not being able to win his own party's nomination. Do you really?

2b,
You see things from a better perspective than I do. You are probably right on the money. But we don't fit the description. Just like Latino's, Jewish folks or Asians for that matter.
Its a big country out there bro. And much of it still see's us all running around in PinStriped Suits with Machine guns - NOT driving Ford F150's. The whole catholic thing doesn't help either. And there were only a handful of presidents whose highest prior office was Mayor (Andrew Jackson and Calvin Coolidge come to mind). Rudy was our best hope. The planets aligned perfectly for him. Momentum is key during a presidential election. He was HOT! Perception of us was going along real good for a while. Then he forgot how to manage a campaign. And his marital infidelity became an issue. He went cold quick. People started remembering Geraldine Ferraro, and all the skeletons that fell out of her husbands closet when she ran.
I think our only hope is a day after one of us actually wins the election, the new President says, oh by the way, I forgot to tell you, I'm Italian.. And then, he'd probably get impeached..
JD

[Naquat]

Johnny Smith - Shenandoah