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Just found a pic of a guitar owned by JS. The strap button on the neck heel seems to be on the wrong side - what would be the possible explanations for this? I just can't figure out how to attach a strap safely that way.
Last edited by JazzNote; 07-07-2016 at 04:13 PM.
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07-07-2016 03:46 PM
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Da used a screw eyelet . The strap end went through the eye.
Bob
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The guitar would kind of hang there ,kind of like the connections that workout bags have . Bob
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There are many instances of the use of hook eyes as strap buttons that you can find over the history of the guitar. Perhaps the most famous is Eddie Van Halen. There are photos of other D'Angelicos with this arrangement, as crude as it seems.
BTW this guitar's connection to Johnny Smith is, to me, an unproven claim. I've ranted about this before. It has been on sale on Reverb.com for a long time at $40,000. The seller claims that he has the bill of sale for this guitar from Johnny Smith to Hank Risan. However, the guitar JS- a 17" 1955 New Yorker- sold to Risan is not this guitar, which is an Excel. The description in the bill of sale makes this obvious and the photographic evidence of Smith's guitars also confirms it. The inlays are wrong, the headstock is wrong, the finish is wrong. And it's an Excel, not a New Yorker.
Johnny Smith had three D'Angelico guitars documented on Lin Flanagan's book which is the most detailed resource available. His first was destroyed when his house burned down. His second was a 40s guitar borrowed from John Collins for several years and with which "Moonlight In Vermont" and other recordings between the early and mid 50s were recorded. His final D'Angelico was made in 1955; he played that instrument until the Gibson Johnny Smith guitars were made. Now, he may have actually owned this guitar and there is no documentation of it, but it is at least not the guitar specified in the bill of sale to Hank Risan, which was the famous 1955 New Yorker. IMHO this guitar is worth about 1/4 of the asking price.
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The letter states serial # 1963.....which according to the ledger, is a cutaway Excel.
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Cunamara,
your points are well made. But with great respect, I disagree with the suggestion that it's worth only 1/4 asking price.
A cutaway 1957 Excel, in blond with no issues in that condition should bring more than 10,000. If not, we are in some sad times. 8 years ago, that guitar would have sold for 50,000 everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
Frankly I think the mass auctions that have been taking place lately have KILLED values.
JD
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agree w/Joe on the current value, though not 50K in anyone's lifetime
but it's easily a 25K guitar if not a bit more today
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You may be right. Cutaway archtops tend to sell for more and mid to later D'As seem to sell for more than the pre Excel/New Yorker models. I am probably reacting to the attempt to link that guitar to Johnny Smith without any actual proof, which I see as an attempt to inflate its value. Since you are an active purchaser and seller of guitars at this level and I am not, you've got a better sense of prices than I do.
Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
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Thanks Cunamara.
That would be wrong if the seller of this guitar is attaching a false link to Johnny Smith.
What sucks even more is that guitar and many other beauties just like it are not selling. Even at greatly reduced prices. Scary..
Joe D
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But no....really....the letter names the serial number that coincides with an Excel listed in the ledgers. Johnny Smith owned a guitar store....so I'm sure that he owned and played quite a few more guitars than what we are familiar with. I also don't think the $40K asking price on this one is any more or less ridiculous than the other blond cutaway Excels that have a similar asking price. But I'm just a hobbyist.
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If any guitars are worth those prices--Les Pauls, Telecasters, Stratocasters included--it has to be the D'Angelicos and D'Aquistos. Intrinsically, they are the pinnacles of the luthier's craft. I have played '59 Les Pauls, '53 Telecasters, a '54 Stratocaster, pre-War Martins, and early L-5 Gibsons. However, NOTHING comes close to the Excel that my first instructor owned and taught me with. Greatest guitar I ever saw, held, played, etc. As good as it gets.
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Old Les Pauls, Strats and Teles are valuable because of who played them (and their rarity), the DA's are valuable because of who made them.
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The letter also specifies a 1955 New Yorker (not a 1957 Excel), which is consistent with the photos of Johnny Smith playing his guitar. That guitar is not the one in the photo and is not the one that Hank Risan bought for $20,000 from JS. Originally Posted by customxke
For what it's worth, according to Lin Flanagan's official biography of JS: His first D'Angelico was delivered in 1950- a blonde 17" New Yorker (the New Yorker was normally 18")- with serial no. 1850. This one was destroyed in a house fire in March 1951. His second D'Angelico was borrowed from John Collins and kept until he received his next guitar.
The third D'Angelico was listed in the ledger as an "Excel 1000 cutaway" with serial no. 1963. The inlasy and ornamentation were that of the New Yorker rather than the Excel (split inlays, etc.).
And here it is, on the left, in the Hank Risan collection:
TheMoMI.org -- The Museum of Musical Instruments -- The Hank Risan Collection
And there is this video which appears to be the D'Angelico with a Gibson floating pickup and Oettinger-style tailpiece, which means the video is after 1978 but before the sale of the guitar to Hank Risan.
He did own a music store, and it is certainly possible that he owned other D'Angelicos than are documented in Lin's book and elsewhere on the Internet- maybe even this one. However, the bill of sale in the ad appears to be for a different instrument than the one for sale on Reverb.com. I note that the seller does not document the instrument's serial number directly, which would of course lay the matter to rest.Johnny Smith owned a guitar store....so I'm sure that he owned and played quite a few more guitars than what we are familiar with. I also don't think the $40K asking price on this one is any more or less ridiculous than the other blond cutaway Excels that have a similar asking price. But I'm just a hobbyist.
I think these particular guitars were among the finest instruments ever made, especially the 1955 and the one he borrowed from John Collins. It didn't hurt that Johnny Smith was the one playing them, of course. He'd have made a Kay sound wonderful. But apparently he felt his first Gibson JS, a sunburst, was even better. He used that one from 1961-1975 when he sent it back to Gibson to be refurbished and it was lost or stolen. Gibson used an incomplete Citation as the basis for the replacement, which was blonde. That's the guitar in the Bing Crosby video. It was badly damaged in 1982 by airline baggage handlers- broken neck, broken top- so it was back to Gibson again for repairs. Some time after that he moved his endorsement to Heritage, Benedetto-Guild, etc. His children donated his second JS to the Smithsonian in 2013. I prefer the tone of his D'Angelicos to the Gibsons, but it is really not possible to directly compare given the changes in recording technology, etc., from 1952 to the 1970s. Heck, "The Man With The Blue Guitar" was recorded in the basement of the music store! Johnny Smith played the Gibsons far longer than he played the D'Angelicos and that says something right there.
Smith got a 5% royalty on each Gibson JS sold- initial list price was $795 for sunburst and $810 for blonde. He received a $1,000 advance with which to open the store and Gibson consigned some guitars and amps to get him going. (Most of this information comes from Lin's book).
As you can see, I've got way too much interest in Johnny Smith and his guitars...
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C,
As a fellow Johnny Smith fan, I share your mission. You don't want to see anyone taking advantage of our boy..
You know, According the Ken Burns Jazz series, It was believed that back in the early 1900's that Louis Armstrong was an alien sent from another world to play trumpet. He did it so much differently from anyone else. I see Johnny much in the same manner. The fretboard was his landing pad. It's only limitation was the exactly the sound he wanted to make on it. And his otherworldly ability allowed him to do just that.
I see him as not the best jazz guitarist who ever lived, But the greatest guitarist who ever lived period. One listen to the complete roost will give you all you need to know about how special he was. He was the most complete guitar player ever. He couldn't have been human.
Another ridiculous chord from Autumn Nocturne..
5
2
0
3
1
1
drop D tuning. Come on...
Joe D
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" Johnny Smith played the Gibsons far longer than he played the D'Angelicos and that says something right there."
just a guess, but seeing as how he had an endorsement deal w/Gibson I think that says that he was being paid to play a Gibson, especially in public. not saying he didn't like his namesake guitar, but the majority of his recorded output was on DA's
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The JS model was basically a copy of Smith's D'A with a few minor changes. He sent Gibson John D'Angelico's plans for it, and even let them have his D'A for the copying process.
JS admitted this in an interview in GP magazine.
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According to Lin Flanagan's book, Ted McCarty visited JS in 1960 at his home in Colorado Springs, giving him complete control over the design of the guitar. The 1955 D'Angelico was measured along with an L-5 with Smith specifing the neck dimensions, top carve, bracing, body dimensions and binding (I presume this refers to the way the binding fills the gap in the cutaway, because other sources indicated that Smith insisted the top be carved as if for a non-cutaway before the cutaway was made. This was once of the reasons he rescinded his endorsement with Guild years earlier. D'Angelico did it that way, but D'Aquisto later said he did so because he didn't want to develop a new carving pattern. Smith later recognized that carving the top after the cutaway was made was just fine- IIRC it was Benedetto who convinced him). This is on p. 175 in the book. I am assuming that Lin is correct since he had official access to Johnny, his family, colleagues, etc. There is no mention of the plans from D'Angelico in the book and frankly I'd be surprised if D'Angelico gave them to JS; now that I think about it, I've never seen any picture of D'Angelico with drawings of plans for guitars although he must have had them. According to the book (p. 171), the 1955 D'Angelico had a 25" scale and the neck with 20 frets in full contact with the top to the cross of the bracing as Smith's specific request; D'Angelico had not previously done these things but they became requestable features afterwards. I don't know if that it correct, of course. In short, according to Lin Flanagan, Js basically co-designed his 1955 guitar with D'Angelico.
Wow, this has drifted from the original topic, eh? Sorry for hijacking the thread with my little obsession! Clearly I need some other hobbies to fill up my time. This is the practical definition of minutae.Last edited by Cunamara; 07-10-2016 at 01:20 AM.
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Who cares about drifting from the original topic if it gets so interesting. In fact i have ordered the JS biography a few weeks ago but it is delayed, should arrive any day now and i'm "actively" waiting for it. So every little bit of preview is very welcome ;-). Thanks for sharing your little obsession! Originally Posted by Cunamara
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One other thing to keep in mind. Luthiers make guitars to there own ideas and design. It's the players who make them work. Not on their couch. But up on the bandstand, in the real world. There's a difference between what sounds good on the bench or on your couch and how your guitar reacts when you are digging into it at 120 bpm with a drummer banging away to your right and a piano player who gives you no space right in front of you (believe me, I know a thing or 2 about the latter..). The player can and absolutely SHOULD have a hand in the design of a guitar. They are the ones who know what needs to be done.
And if the greatest player who ever touched a guitar wants to put his name on a particular model, and demand that it stays consistent and plentiful, that's his prerogative. God bless him. With all due respect, D'Angelico made 1138 guitars with his name on the headstock in the 30 some odd years he built them. In the 1st decade Gibson made 873 Johnny Smith guitars.
Being Italian myself, I know what conversations can turn into when 2 Italian guys are talking. If the only negative thing that was said in that room was "Johnny is a whore", then Johnny was given a tremendous amount of respect in that room.
Sorry for my pontification.
Joe D
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Which end of that chord is the low E? It's a monster grip either way, one of those things Joe Pass called "tendinitis chord." Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
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I'd call that Eb9 sharp11 (low to high Eb,Bb,F,G,Db,A) Originally Posted by Cunamara
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You are right, there is a huge difference between what works in the living room and what works on the bandstand. If I gig with the EQ I use at home, which sounds really good to me there, it sounds like I've buried the amp under a blanket. My sound is totally lost between the drums, bass and horns. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
From Lin's book, Johnny had very definite ideas about guitar design from early in his New York days. I suppose that in those days there were not a lot of options and the technology for amplified guitars was crude and changing rapidly. The players were probably much more hands on. IIRC Tal Farlow built his first guitar pickup from radio parts and did a bunch of other electrical design for things he wanted (building his own octave divider, his guitar stool with the amp build into it, etc.). Atilla Zoller designed his own pickup. And of course Les Paul did all this stuff. For us latter-day players there is just so much more off the shelf stuff to work with.
I did not know that many GJSes were made that quickly. There are books on the ES-175, the L-5, etc.; is there a book on the GJS? That could be quite fascinating.And if the greatest player who ever touched a guitar wants to put his name on a particular model, and demand that it stays consistent and plentiful, that's his prerogative. God bless him. With all due respect, D'Angelico made 1138 guitars with his name on the headstock in the 30 some odd years he built them. In the 1st decade Gibson made 873 Johnny Smith guitars.
LOL. Chicago area Irish in my case, the specific insults might be slightly different but the principle is similar. ;-)Being Italian myself, I know what conversations can turn into when 2 Italian guys are talking. If the only negative thing that was said in that room was "Johnny is a whore", then Johnny was given a tremendous amount of respect in that room.
No apology needed.Sorry for my pontification.
Joe D
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In Flanagans book on JS, Flanagan surmises that the real reason that JS never played the original Guild JS Award was the 24.75 scale length. Guild eventually went to 25.5 and later, when they replaced the single coil DeArmond with a humbucker moved the scale to 25 5/8 (Some say 25 9/16, but I have measured my GBAA and it is 25 5/8, which is the scale Guild used on many of it's high end acoustic guitars.
Interestingly, JS was OK with the 25 5/8 scale on the GBAA (and it had a 1 11/16 nut). The only change he made to that guitar before endorsing it (going full circle back to Guild) was a full contact neck. My 37 DA and my 48 DA do not have full contact necks. My DA2 (formerly know as the HDA) does have a full contact neck. The DA2 was a copy of a 61 DA that I assume had a full contact neck. I further assume that being an 18 inch New Yorker, in never belonged to JS (who favored the 17 inch guitar). That tells me that John D'Angelico liked Johnny Smith's idea of the full contact neck enough to use it on other guitars. I wonder why, JS, on his last endorsed guitar, did not specify his preferred 25.0 scale and 1 3/4 nut?
At least Johnny Smith got some respect for his ideas. When Les Paul first developed his "log" guitar, it was rejected by Gibson (and presumably Epiphone). When Gibson finally expressed interest in a Les Paul model, the only idea of Les' that Gibson used was his bridge. Within a year Gibson replaced Les' bridge as well.
Details, details, details....you see Cunamara, you are not the only one here that needs to get a life!
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No pontification Joe, you make some good points. And you paid up - earned the right - to speak about these JS guitars. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
I just think the saddest part of a Johnny Smith " D'A " guitar was that D'A really never could take advantage of the JS endorsement, or anyone else's endorsements either. Being basically a 2 man shop, I get the feeling they were already building all they could build.
Gibson ( and probably no one else, before or since ) could make the endorsement work.....
I'm guessing J. D'A thought Johnny Smith a whore because he probably thought he was more trouble than he was worth......I can hear him talking to Jimmy D'A......" That ** Johnny Smith just called and wants me to build John Collins another guitar, - - next month !! ".... " Then he wants me to build the John Collins one for the old price and oh yeah he needs it in 60 days "...and then the phone rings , Jimmy D'A picks it up, listens , and says to John D'A : " John - that was John Collins - -Johnny Smith has his guitar and won't give it back, so he needs another one real quick ! ".......(( this is probably where one of them says "marone" )).
I think Jimmy D'A understood this better and pursued the Hagstrom and Fender arrangements for that reason.
Just my .02 cents.......
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Thanks Dennis. The last thing you said here in my snip was a BINGO! Right on the money! Originally Posted by Dennis D
I got it from Vintage guitar magazine. Originally Posted by Cunamara
https://www.vintageguitar.com/3569/gibson-johnny-smith/
yeah, I hear ya on the Irish thing. All you have to do is step into a poob and I personally feel right at home!
JazzNote, you got that right. I am a minute and 10 secs into Autumn Nocturne and it already taken me a week and a half. Originally Posted by JazzNote
I swear to you that when he came up with this stuff, he channeled his inner Mr T. and said, "I pity the fool who tries this one.." The most beautiful run in this song starts out with one of those impossible to play chords
14
12
13
12
x
14
Into a pentitonic scale, into some thirds than into a 3 note chime harmonic fretted on the 8th fret but picked with the back of your fingernail and muted with that same fingers fingertip. Every difficult thing, shoehorned into 2 bars.. I love him, but he was ridiculous..
that chord, is the exact opposite of a stretch chord.. My sausage fingers need some modifications..
thanks guys.
JD
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