Metheny and his Slaman at the White House

**vernon** · 05-02-2016, 06:41 AM

Lee Ritenour and John McLaughlin sounded good. It did seem like Pat couldn't hear himself though... or that the tone he was hearing was freaking him out a little. High point of the show for me was Chick, Wayne, Marcus, and John wailing through those dual twin reverb amps on "Spanish Key" - even if it was a 5 minute version.

**BigMikeinNJ** · 05-02-2016, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bluedawg

I thought his playing was fine .. .and the guitar sounds good .... I'm just not hearing his usual box of tricks supporting his signature sound

Definitely issues with the mix IMHO and his reverb/delay or whatever he uses were missing .....

For the shortcomings in that video .... I'm blaming requirements for a short tune and not enough time to bring in and set up his usual gear more than any decline in his skills ..... more logistical issues than anything else if you ask me

I've seen him play a few times recently and thought he was playing quite well

And I would say that about all the other performances, it was a package performance aimed to please a large number of focus groups and nationalities. Pretty good for a U.S. President. Now this was the same evening that Obama did the Correspondents' Dinner, right - where he tore up everyone and got to say his goodbyes. This gig followed that Dinner, not a bad night.

As for Metheny's guitar, gorgeous - damn did any of you notice the wood on the sides. I've got a 5k iMac and was sitting my usual REAL CLOSE to the screen and doggone that Slaman is sure purty. I went to a LOT of Pat Metheny concerts and Minuano 6/8 was one of those tunes that PM always had a chance to stretch out and solo on, and to verify another's comments. It never hurt that Pat had Lyle on keys...

Pretty good show for a sitting U.S. President. We're a pretty picky bunch and yeah I bet if performers like John McLaughlin, Aretha Franklin, Herbie Hancock, Pat Metheny and Lee Rittenour had a chance to really blow it would have been totally amazing.

**jbucklin** · 05-02-2016, 08:14 AM

Yes! Big Mike, thank you for posting that incredible video. That brought tears to my eyes. I wish PM would put the PMG back together with Pedro Aznar. And Pat always got the best tone with his old 175, imo.

**lawson-stone** · 05-02-2016, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ

And I would say that about all the other performances, it was a package performance aimed to please a large number of focus groups and nationalities. Pretty good for a U.S. President. Now this was the same evening that Obama did the Correspondents' Dinner, right - where he tore up everyone and got to say his goodbyes. This gig followed that Dinner, not a bad night.

As for Metheny's guitar, gorgeous - damn did any of you notice the wood on the sides. I've got a 5k iMac and was sitting my usual REAL CLOSE to the screen and doggone that Slaman is sure purty. I went to a LOT of Pat Metheny concerts and Minuano 6/8 was one of those tunes that PM always had a chance to stretch out and solo on, and to verify another's comments. It never hurt that Pat had Lyle on keys...

Pretty good show for a sitting U.S. President. We're a pretty picky bunch and yeah I bet if performers like John McLaughlin, Aretha Franklin, Herbie Hancock, Pat Metheny and Lee Rittenour had a chance to really blow it would have been totally amazing.

I confess also Pedro Anzar doing the text-less vocals in this clip is my favorite of that strand in PM's music. Anzar's handling of "First Circle" made me a believer, but I also concluded this is an ultra-super-uber-unforgiving type of performance. It's either amazing or it sucks. This guy is amazing!

**BigMikeinNJ** · 05-02-2016, 08:41 AM

That group lineup, maybe the on from 1982 Montreal Jazz Festival era was about the best ever. In 1990 I went to what was called Villa Montalvo to see Parallel Realities Live (Pat as a sideman) and we were allowed to bring cameras in if they didn't have flash attachments - you could shoot all the photos you wanted until the end of the third tune. I got there LONG before the doors opened and was in shooting pics of Pat's setup THIS CLOSE to the stage. His old 175 was pretty doggone beat up even in 1990. Yeah that was some great stuff...

Big

Metheny and his Slaman at the White House-175cls-jpg

Metheny and his Slaman at the White House-175cls-jpg

Metheny and his Slaman at the White House-p8180011-jpg

**jbucklin** · 05-02-2016, 09:06 AM

The first time I saw him was in '81. They were touring the "As Falls Wichita..." album and he had Nana Vasconcelos on percussion. Danny Gottlieb was still playing drums and he had just hired Steve Rodby. That was a life-changing event. Saw them play several times after that and it was always nothing short of mesmerizing. Pat achieved something with that group that no one else has ever achieved in the history of jazz.

**BigMikeinNJ** · 05-02-2016, 10:00 AM

Totally agree with JBucklin

Saw him in '84 at Berkeley Greek Theater, saw him again in '85 at the Greek with Parri (the Falcon and the Snowman tour I thought of it as), then again in '89 at The Greek and then '90 with Jack DeJohnette doing the Parallel Realities gig (see videos on YouTube, particularly BLUE) and then again at Villa Montalvo for the Imaginary Day thing. I'm in the bleachers near the front right with my neighbor Charlie who always was the perfect PM gig date: go early, stay late at the stage door and get everything signed by Pat, get some guitar picks, whatever. What a class act.

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-02-2016, 10:26 AM

Is it my imagination, or is that perhaps a Barcus Berry piezo down by the bridge that he blended with the humbucker?

I love shiny new guitars but I probably love beatup guitars that tell a story with their appearance AND sound great even more.

**Boston Joe** · 05-02-2016, 10:50 AM

Was it the best Metheney performance I've ever heard? No. But I thought it was fine, and appropriate for the event. Pat does look really uncomfortable in that jacket.

**jbucklin** · 05-02-2016, 10:58 AM

And, he no longer looks like a long-haired Tom Cruise! He also looks like he's passing a kidney stone when he solos. please don't get me wrong folks---I've loved Metheny ever since Bright Size Life was released and still catch myself doing Metheny-isms whenever I play. Not a bad thing.

**Bluedawg** · 05-02-2016, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by jbucklin

And, he no longer looks like a long-haired Tom Cruise! He also looks like he's passing a kidney stone when he solos. please don't get me wrong folks---I've loved Metheny ever since Bright Size Life was released and still catch myself doing Metheney-isms whenever I play. Not a bad thing.

Metheny always looks like playing guitar is hard work for him ... at least to my eyes

Another thing about this gig .... my guess is that with all of the hassle of getting into the White House with your gear and having the Secret Service in their shorts many of the artists did not get the warm up time they usually get before a gig .... IIRC Metheny likes to spend an hour or two playing before his gigs

The Diana Krall / Christian McBride bit that comes right afterwards was stunning, though

I saw McBride play with Metheny a few years ago and he has become one of my heroes ... I've been trying to spend some time learning to play the upright bass and he makes it look easy

**Cavalier** · 05-02-2016, 01:27 PM

Didn't care for the sound of the CC pickup.

**oldane** · 05-02-2016, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Cavalier

Didn't care for the sound of the CC pickup.

There's so many variables when it comes to tone, so I don't think one can conclude that if one doesn't like the sound of a quite heavily processed electric guitar, then the pickup is THE cause. FWIW, many people are very pleased with these CC pickups which offers both warmth and clarity.

**jbucklin** · 05-02-2016, 02:05 PM

Good point. Charlie Christian sure got a big fat sound with his Charlie Christian pickup! As did Jimmy Raney.

**Cunamara** · 05-02-2016, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by jbucklin

The first time I saw him was in '81. They were touring the "As Falls Wichita..." album and he had Nana Vasconcelos on percussion. Danny Gottlieb was still playing drums and he had just hired Steve Rodby. That was a life-changing event. Saw them play several times after that and it was always nothing short of mesmerizing. Pat achieved something with that group that no one else has ever achieved in the history of jazz.

I think that was the first time I saw him, or maybe the next year. Saw him at Luther College in Iowa; the band hung out by the buss talking with the audience afterwards, very relaxed and cool.

**Cavalier** · 05-02-2016, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

There's so many variables when it comes to tone, so I don't think one can conclude that if one doesn't like the sound of a quite heavily processed electric guitar, then the pickup is THE cause. FWIW, many people are very pleased with these CC pickups which offers both warmth and clarity.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, the neat thing about conclusions is we can all reach our own. I'm comparing it to the sound of Pat using humbuckers in a similar environment. For Pat this is pretty minimal processing. Short of guitar modelers most people can tell the difference between a P90, PAF or tele pickup etc.... The "clarity" has a lot to do with the narrow sensing of CCs, kind of ironic that a archtop uses a big body to amplify the sound. To me guitars like this are a sure sign of success because the player can afford to do so many things that don't make a lot of sense. Such as having a large carved top guitar with big vibration changing magnets bolted to the top, the narrow sensing pickup and lots of treble rolled off losing much definition and harmonic content.

In truth we probably don't know what Charlie sounded like because what we have is colored by the recording technology and record manufacturing process of the day. I'm sure with the right amp some people can get sounds they like out of CCs, I think they should be reserved for laminates but these are all just my opinions.

**lawson-stone** · 05-02-2016, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by jbucklin

And, he no longer looks like a long-haired Tom Cruise! He also looks like he's passing a kidney stone when he solos. please don't get me wrong folks---I've loved Metheny ever since Bright Size Life was released and still catch myself doing Metheny-isms whenever I play. Not a bad thing.

I wish I played well enough for people to say "Oh, that was a Metheny-ism"

**mr quick** · 05-02-2016, 03:12 PM

well, there's stoners... does that help?

**jbucklin** · 05-02-2016, 03:15 PM

Well, my favorite guitar player of all time is Jim Hall and on occasion someone will say I sound like him. I respond by saying, "Uh, I don't think so!" That man was a deep well that no one can replicate.

**oldane** · 05-02-2016, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cavalier

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, the neat thing about conclusions is we can all reach our own. I'm comparing it to the sound of Pat using humbuckers in a similar environment. For Pat this is pretty minimal processing. Short of guitar modelers most people can tell the difference between a P90, PAF or tele pickup etc.... The "clarity" has a lot to do with the narrow sensing of CCs, kind of ironic that a archtop uses a big body to amplify the sound. To me guitars like this are a sure sign of success because the player can afford to do so many things that don't make a lot of sense. Such as having a large carved top guitar with big vibration changing magnets bolted to the top, the narrow sensing pickup and lots of treble rolled off losing much definition and harmonic content.

In truth we probably don't know what Charlie sounded like because what we have is colored by the recording technology and record manufacturing process of the day. I'm sure with the right amp some people can get sounds they like out of CCs, I think they should be reserved for laminates but these are all just my opinions.

Now. I really didn't want to go into the merits or not of CCs in archtops because that is a matter of personal taste. I just meant to say that the PU was only one of the links in the chain and if the sound produced is less than optimal to one listener, it may not be that obvious that the PU and nothing else is to blame.

As for the sound of Charlie Christian, it's true that we don't know exactly how he sounded. But I happen to know how a 1938 original Gibson CC pickup sounds today as I have one mounted in an old Gibson L37. Yes, the cobalt magnets likely have weakened over the years and the sound may thus have changed (mellowed? - weaker magnets often produce a mellower sound) but it's as close as we get. And as for the Biltoft CC PUs, I have them in three of my guitars (a 175, a Painter P350 and a Warmoth partscaster of all things) and I do like the sound of it. Clear in the buttom and full in the top (actually a generic characteristic of single coil PUs) with good note separation in chords. Others here like them too.

My favorite jazz guitar sound is the sound of Jimmy Raneys ES 150 with its CC PU as it is heard on the "Streetswingers" and "Two Jims and a Zoot" albums - both with Jim Hall. But Raney has sounded different (tone wise) with the same guitar on other records - likely because another amp (and maybe another recording technician) was used.

I don't like what is often called a jazz guitar sound - "roll off the treble". I prefer to keep a fair amount of treble and mids and achieve the mellowness by picking over the neck PU instead of closer to the bridge. If anything I tend to turn down the bass in order not to mud up the sound. But of course, that depends on the amp.

That said, IMHO the amp, the amp settings, the string choice, the pick, the picking style, where to pick on the string etc. means far more to the resultant sound than the PU. To (over)simplify it, there are just two kinds of PUs - single coil and humbucker. The rest of the character differencies between PUs can be dealt with with appropiate EQ tweaking.

**Boston Joe** · 05-02-2016, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by jbucklin

And, he no longer looks like a long-haired Tom Cruise! He also looks like he's passing a kidney stone when he solos. please don't get me wrong folks---I've loved Metheny ever since Bright Size Life was released and still catch myself doing Metheny-isms whenever I play. Not a bad thing.

He does have a bad case of guitar face.

**feral guitar** · 05-02-2016, 05:55 PM

very nice to hear Johnny Mac thru a proper guitar/amp setup for a change

**jovialspoon** · 05-02-2016, 08:28 PM

Minuano 6/8 is a truly brilliant piece. If you haven't already heard it, check out Kurt Elling's vocal version. He really does it justice.

**icr** · 05-02-2016, 10:28 PM

I'm not sure what to call the pickup in Metheney's new guitar.

**Cavalier** · 05-02-2016, 11:18 PM

The plot and pole pieces thicken..... wonder what they did on the coil windings, doesn't have the P90 punch in the vid. I'm sure there are some good demos out there of this variant to give a better idea of the sound.. I accept the possibility that Pat's settings are to blame to keep peace with the forum.