Are Kemper amps ethical?

[boatheelmusic]

One guy's perspective:

[henryrobinett]

I see this posted in Facebook. I fervently believe in upholding copyright and intellectual property rights. I have been defending the rights in practice and principle from the beginning of the information technology wars. I don't think I've ever gotten any software or music illegally. But modeling is not copying, I don't believe. Software approximation. It's not actually copying circuit boards, tube, hardware design. Any more than a musician copying a heroes style. Copying sound. It's not copying a song, or a book or a car. Inherent in digital 1s and 0s.


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_

[Stringswinger]

Harley-Davidson was unable to patent their sound. I seriously doubt any amp manufacturer would be able to do so. What Kemper does is perfectly legal

Ethical? Am I unethical when I play a Joe Pass lick? Was Joe Pass unethical when he played a Django Reinhardt lick? Wherever one draws the line on this kind of stuff is strictly personal. There is no right or wrong answer to the OP's question.

[eddy b.]

It's an interesting grey area in that copying is copying, we used to record songs off the radio with a cassette player, which was free downloading before the Internet and file sharing. So if the Kemper "hears" a sound and approximates it....as a reproduce-able sound thereby eliminating the need to buy the real sound seems kind of shady to me....maybe not illegal but maybe not that cool.

[henryrobinett]

I mean, maybe. I was thinking more of the Fractal. I think the user has more control of parameters.


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_

[John A.]

Most of the amp circuits people would want to profile aren't patented/patentable. They're variants on circuits published many decades ago by tube companies that are now in the public domain and/or weren't sufficiently novel to warrant patents. Amps' only real protected IP is trademarks, logos and names. IOW, you're free to copy a Fender amp sound or circuit, but you can't call it a Fender model or use their font without without Fender's permission.

IANAL, so grains of salt, etc., but there's no legal problem copying the sound or modeling an amp. Legality aside, I don't see an ethical problem.

John

[vintagelove]

I assure you, electronically speaking, Marshall owes Fender a lot more money than Kemper does. They all owe whoever wrote the RCA tube manual, half thier money!!!

All (well most) tube amp circuits are derived from the original designs. Fender borrowed from the original RCA circuits, Marshall borrowed from fender, Mesa took a bit of both, Soldano added to a Marshall. Peavey robbed Soldano, etc.


Were all standing on the shoulders of giants. It won't be long until everyone and thier brother are doing the profiling thing.


But they still won't sound as good as my BF super reverb!!!

[jzucker]

actually, axefx is copying circuit topology and layout. kemper is sampling. Both are grey areas IMO. However, if you play any modern tube amp you are likely playing something someone copied from fender so where do you draw the line. Same with guitars. How many of us play guitars with designs borrowed from gibson, benedetto, d'aquisto, d'angelico ? So, the guy who posted that video sounds a lot like the ethical vegetarian who still wears leather boots and belt...

I see this posted in Facebook. I fervently believe in upholding copyright and intellectual property rights. I have been defending the rights in practice and principle from the beginning of the information technology wars. I don't think I've ever gotten any software or music illegally. But modeling is not copying, I don't believe. Software approximation. It's not actually copying circuit boards, tube, hardware design. Any more than a musician copying a heroes style. Copying sound. It's not copying a song, or a book or a car. Inherent in digital 1s and 0s.


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_

[dortmundjazzguitar]

amps can't be "ethical", only users can. but if profiling amps are really that good, then they do turn amps into digital commodities. with all the obvious problems. you can order a boutique amp, profile it and send it back.

[Cunamara]

You can legally buy amps that duplicate the circuit of other amps- 5E3 clones abound, for instance. The component layout, the chassis, the cab... All duplicates with the usual exception of modern UL-approved grounding and elimination of the "death cap." If "intellectual property" were an issue, Fender would enforce it. Or all the clone pedals by Joyo, Behringer, etc. Of course a lot of those circuits come straight out of electrical engineering textbooks, industry manuals, etc., and were not created by the "original" manufacturer.

There is simply no way to claim ownership over the sound of an amp, in part because every amp can be made to sound quite different in a practically infinite variety of adjustments in EQ, volume, etc.

There is no legal or ethical problem with amp modeling, which is really amp approximation.

[lawson-stone]

amps can't be "ethical", only users can. but if profiling amps are really that good, then they do turn amps into digital commodities. with all the obvious problems. you can order a boutique amp, profile it and send it back.

Good point. Objects are not "ethical" or "unethical." Only behavior, and on some ethical theories, intentions, can be "ethical" or "unethical."

The question of whether something that is legal is still ethical is also one I doubt most of us in music are equipped to resolve! Laws ought to be the codification, after the fact, of an ethical consensus. It ought generally to be the case that something is illegal because it is unethical, though not all unethical acts would necessarily be illegal.

In the area of "arguably legal but arguably unethical" the only recourse available is social pressure, selective purchasing, and shaming. Many cultures find shaming to be a powerful means of enforcing an ethical consensus short of physical coercion, but in western culture where we literally have no shame, I doubt it will work. That just leaves the marketplace. If someone things Kemper modeling and profiling is unethical, they need to persuade lots and lots of people not to buy Kempers, but to buy the amps they believe are injured by Kemper.

I'm still not convinced about the modeling violating IP laws. I do think buying an amp, profiling it, and returning it borders on exploitive practice.

[NSJ]

I'm really glad I watched the entire thing, because I learned that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened ".

Who knew ?

* Waits patiently for rant about the demise of blockbuster video *

Other pieces of wisdom I didn't know: don't buy a Kemper because "it's not rock 'n' roll, it's not fucking Lemmy".

Uh, Ok.

"The days of $100,000 and $200,000 budgets for record albums are over ".

Well, that must mean that Prestige spent almost $800,000 on "Workin", "Relaxin", "Cookin" and "Steamin".

Oh wait, those were never actual budgets for jazz records .

Full disclosure, I have a Kemper and profiled all my own amps, eventually selling most of them . I also profiled my friends Allesandro and Carr amps .

I also got rid of my record player about 20 years ago. Don't miss it one bit .

He's right though, this conventional amp technology, his beloved tube amps, will eventually go the way of Blockbuster video.

The modeling amps have increased in quality by leaps and bounds . The future belongs to Kemper and Axe FX.

It's unavoidable .

[mr. beaumont]

I'm ready for the future.

[boatheelmusic]

Hell, Jeff, you ARE the future, available to us today!

[Cunamara]

<snip>

Many cultures find shaming to be a powerful means of enforcing an ethical consensus short of physical coercion, but in western culture where we literally have no shame, I doubt it will work.

Seriously, you think there is no shame in Western culture? Perhaps you should read Gershen Kaufman for a different perspective. Shame is one of the fundamental shapers of Western culture.

I'm still not convinced about the modeling violating IP laws. I do think buying an amp, profiling it, and returning it borders on exploitive practice.

There are no "IP laws" as such because IP is imaginary. There are patent laws, copyright laws and trademark laws. These are specific legal structures that are erroneously referred to as "IP laws." They are not intellectual property laws; intellectual property is a recently made up rubric intended to deprive software purchasers from the right to actually own the software they purchase and has been extended from there for use by others with a financial interest in maintaining control over information. It's quite interesting how readily society fell for that nonsense.

Intellectual property = thoughts. The only way to own them is to never express them. Once you express them, you allow them to be propagated, replicated and modified. The interesting thing is that, unlike actual property, you can give intellectual property away and not lose it for yourself. You might find reading Lawrence Lessig interesting.

[vintagelove]

I'm really glad I watched the entire thing, because I learned that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened ".

Who knew ?

* Waits patiently for rant about the demise of blockbuster video *

Other pieces of wisdom I didn't know: don't buy a Kemper because "it's not rock 'n' roll, it's not fucking Lemmy".

Uh, Ok.

"The days of $100,000 and $200,000 budgets for record albums are over ".

Well, that must mean that Prestige spent almost $800,000 on "Workin", "Relaxin", "Cookin" and "Steamin".

Oh wait, those were never actual budgets for jazz records .

Full disclosure, I have a Kemper and profiled all my own amps, eventually selling most of them . I also profiled my friends Allesandro and Carr amps .

I also got rid of my record player about 20 years ago. Don't miss it one bit .

He's right though, this conventional amp technology, his beloved tube amps, will eventually go the way of Blockbuster video.

The modeling amps have increased in quality by leaps and bounds . The future belongs to Kemper and Axe FX.

It's unavoidable .

They may replace them, but nothing feels like electrons moving at the speed of light, or sounds better ime.

[henryrobinett]

OMG!!!! You've got to be kidding me????? Wow. This is utter BS. I can't condone that type of thinking. Sorry. OMG. Where are the rights of creative people??? What laws are in place to protect them, the songwriters, artists, software developers? It's all gifts to the CONSUMER JUST BECAUSE HE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE ANYTHING HE WANTS?????

This upsets me almost more than anything.



All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_

[mr. beaumont]

They may replace them, but nothing feels like electrons moving at the speed of light

Indeed.

[henryrobinett]

I believe in creative people. I believe in supporting creative people. They kind of make the world go round. I'm less interested in supporting people who believe it's their right to rip off the work of creative people.


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_

[lawson-stone]

Seriously, you think there is no shame in Western culture? Perhaps you should read Gershen Kaufman for a different perspective. Shame is one of the fundamental shapers of Western culture.



There are no "IP laws" as such because IP is imaginary. There are patent laws, copyright laws and trademark laws. These are specific legal structures that are erroneously referred to as "IP laws." They are not intellectual property laws; intellectual property is a recently made up rubric intended to deprive software purchasers from the right to actually own the software they purchase and has been extended from there for use by others with a financial interest in maintaining control over information. It's quite interesting how readily society fell for that nonsense.

Intellectual property = thoughts. The only way to own them is to never express them. Once you express them, you allow them to be propagated, replicated and modified. The interesting thing is that, unlike actual property, you can give intellectual property away and not lose it for yourself. You might find reading Lawrence Lessig interesting.

Thanks-I will check those sources. I admit my wording was legally sloppy and you rightly shred them. Still, we commonly group patent, copyright, etc. under the heading of "intellectual property." And it's not just software, but photographs, written documents, and other works.

I think we are using the term "Shame" in perhaps different ways. I'd recommend some reading for you but I prefer not to fling authors' names around like bombs. You never know who might actually have read them.

[abelljo]

Sounds to me that he's not happy because he has spent thousands upon thousands in amps and he might be afraid that one day a company may actually dial in the sound perfectly, rendering his studio and his purchase of amps a waist.

[Socraticaster]

Here's my view as a professional ethicist: from a Kantian perspective, yes. Obviously modeling, profiling, and the like violate the second formulation of the categorical imperative. There are, of course, alternatives to Kant's deontological approach to ethics, but I certainly find none of them intellectually satisfactory.

[rabbit]

I miss the days when the fanciest tech gadget in the house was
a phone answering machine with a cassette tape in it.

My expression of this sentiment does not advance the discussion of this thread a bit.
Bet I am not alone.

Still, adapt or die, sooner.

I prefer free-range electrons, thermionic style. But I'm an amateur under no
environmental pressure.

To everyone, thanks for the thread; I'm learning a bunch.

[lawson-stone]

Here's my view as a professional ethicist: from a Kantian perspective, yes. Obviously modeling, profiling, and the like violate the second formulation of the categorical imperative. There are, of course, alternatives to Kant's deontological approach to ethics, but I certainly find none of them intellectually satisfactory.

I can assure you that a careful analysis of the Hebrew Verbal System in a discourse-analytical context validates archaeologically this exact same point.

uhhh... whatever that was.. ;-)

[boatheelmusic]

I can assure you that a careful analysis of the Hebrew Verbal System in a discourse-analytical context validates archaeologically this exact same point.

uhhh... whatever that was.. ;-)

Why I stopped at an MBA.......