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You exactly make my point that ethics, by definition, are relative. 25M humans killed with "ethical" justification by the perpetrators is an act abhorrent to the vast majority of us. Our decisions both arrived at using our ethics.
As far as Kemper ruling the world... nihilistic hyperbole much? Guitar gearheads, and a massive subset of that population, modeling enthusiast (aka crazy gear heads) willing to drop a mint on a cutting edge gear represent an addressable market about the size of the Ivory-billed woodpecker population relative to mainstream markets.
But... I will be on the look out for a bunch of pointy guitar guys storming the castle with their Kempers...
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04-14-2016 09:23 AM
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04-14-2016, 09:28 AM #77dortmundjazzguitar Guest
i see it like this: it is not unethical to build an amp profiler. profiling amps for commercial use could be seen as unethical. doing the same and actually using the original brand's or even a fantasy name that bears resemblance is definitely not ok. gibsun anyone? legislation has simply not caught up with these new technologies (and profiling is just the tip of the iceberg, look at 3d printers)
i do find some comfort in the fact that, assuming that profiling does become the thing of the future, chinese companies wont give a flying f about copyrights and will offer kemper clones at a fraction of a price in a hurry. free dumbles for everyone! boy, will the amp market crash
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@Lawson: Of course this is my own relative subjective perspective -- that's all I've got! And, no, there is no absolute fact -- there is only perception and agreement (and by association, disagreement).
Other than scientific laws that we can prove (eg. thermodynamics -- and metaphysically even that can be deconstructed), there is no absolute fact. As a completely human construct, ethics, one can easily find prolific historical and shared understanding of how we as humans define the word and concept. That is, we humans, as the ones that created the concept we call "ethics", have agreement for what the word means -- not how ethics are manifest, but what the concept means.
There is massive variation in how humans define their ethics, to Goldenwave's point about human atrocities, but godly or evil acts are easily and often justified and rationalized by one's moral philosophy (aka ethics).Last edited by h1pst3r88; 04-14-2016 at 09:34 AM. Reason: edits
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Some thoughts...
While the engineer in me admires the innovation in the technology, I find myself having the same uneasy and sad feeling that I have about people profiling an amp that they purchased and returning it as I do about the demise of the news/journalism business. Organizations like Time Magazine for example paid to have reporters, photographers over where news was happening. Editors ensured source integrity as part of the journalist process. Content costs money.
Today people get their news on aggregated internet sites who re-post the same Reuters, AP and some unreputable sources story over and over again. They expect to have access to this for free. When the organizations who create content are no more, where will it come from? It is the death of content. Similarly, musicians are left with gigging and teaching. No money left in recording; sad.
The amps are the content, the profilers are the internet and the people doing this are the aggregators. I am guessing there will be or are websites (sorry, I don't partake) where Kemper profiles of any and all are available for download for free.
My $.02
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I do not own a Kemper, btw (though I definitely GAS for one, if only for the novelty). I play a Vibrolux through a 2x12 Pinetone cab with 2x12 JBL D123... it is a luxurious if completely non-portable rig.
However, I do have a UA Apollo Twin. Their Unison technology (like Focusrite's Liquid), allows the hardware to mimic the original hardware of say, a Neve 1073, while the software handles yet more of the modeling. Taken together they have "profiled" classic vintage gear. UA does the same for API stuff, Pultek, Lexicon, AKG, etc, etc.
Is it IP infringement to model a preamps plate voltage??
One last point before pretending to get some work done: If I buy a vintage fender amp, then the tones I create with it are mine, yes? If I chose to sample (aka profile) my tones from my amp in my studio, does Fender own them?
Ah, good fun!
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Somebody just profiled an Axe-FX II MkII... NAMM indefinitely cancelled.
The end is nye!!!
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Don't forget South and North America from 15th century onwards, Hiroshima, Vietnam, ... Iraq, Libya, Syria ,... all innumerous interventions ... they all were justified by some
Originally Posted by goldenwave77
ethical talk, not to mention Inquisition, colonialism, slavery ... and so on.
It's simply not fair to only list your enemies' wrongdoings.
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Holy infinite regress Batman! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
John
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But if subjective perspective is all you have, how can you even state that subjective perception is all there is? there might be some other kind of perspective out there you don't know about. How certain are you that you control the entire range of perspective sufficiently to declare that there is nothing but what you subjectively perceive? Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
How do you know what we call "laws of science" are actually provable? If our brains are wired to perceive certain ways, what makes "empirical" science different? Who made the rules for what constitutes proof? Why do you make a separation between realms of belief as (a) behavior [relative] (b) sense-experience [certain]?
I'm just playing with you by the way, I have no dog in the amplifier fight and have now officially exhausted my entire repertoire of philosophical repartee. If you engage me in a battle of wits, you'll be fighting an unarmed man!
Back to bebop licks...
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;-)
Well, you quote Beowulf in your sig, so you must've passed 7th grade!
I am just playing around too... I miss undergrad philosophy survey apparently! I am ALSO messing around with bebop licks after seeing a cool video of Bill Evans (the saxophonist who played with Miles).
For what it's worth, my perception is desperately out of calibration... this is the sewing machine forum, right?
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Profiles of the AxeII's presets were being shared within weeks or months of the Kemper's release. Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
Here's approx. 7,300 profiles, many referenced by the copyrighted name of the amp, cab and/or pedal being profiled Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
Profiler | Rig Exchange Download
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Buying an amp and making a profile of it and returning it to a store is just plain wrong... period! No different in my mind to buying a suit and wearing it to a wedding and after the wedding returning.
As far as Ax presets go, one can go to this the link below and find the same thing. Honestly someone said it better at the beginning of the thread i.e. Fender copied RCA, Marshall copied Fender etc. it is just a sound what you do with it makes it special.
Axe Change -The Official Site for Fractal Audio Presets, Cabs and More
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I think ethics are personal. I think mores are cultural. But I think there's a general agreed upon moral compass most of us share. Most of us agree murder is wrong. Perhaps there could be justified murder. But we'd feel we'd have to justify it, if only to ourselves. We generally agree that stealing is wrong, rape is wrong. There are always fine points of debate but I believe we all have an internal moral compass. This compass allows us to live together in societies.
Where we justify our compass to set defines much about us. Most people I've talked to, for instance, can agree that stealing is wrong and can acknowledge that downloading music for free when the artist and label aren't giving it away, might be wrong, justify this action in various ways.
But I think the Information Age where digital copies challenge to older brick and motor physical products is what this day and age is all about. Morals and ethics beyond what can be enforced. Something is right or something is wrong beyond what can be enforced. Either you have that moral and ethical compass and decide ON YOUR OWN DETERMINISM that your actions reflect that or they don't.
All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_
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Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
Considering the price people put on the the most ridiculous aspects of an instrument and its lineage, is case study in itself (that has obviously been done), i'm inclined to agree with you.
Someone on ebay.com right now selling a Gibson ES-335 for $100,000 because it was 60 odd numbers away from one Eric Clapton once played.
The Kemper will never stop someone buying an original Dumble or vintage Fender, nor will it stop people buying amps for £500 and under (which is probably 90% of the market); nor will it stop people going "Urghhh it looks ugly as F*ck and what do all those buttons do? Tubes mate it's all about Tubezzzzz"
So yeh..
Although if they reduce the price to £200 and it can fit in your pocket, I'd start to raise the draw bridge
p.s I have no issues with someone paying a lot of money for something that makes them happy, although sometimes, therapy would have been cheaper in the long run
Last edited by Archie; 04-14-2016 at 09:31 PM.
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To me ethics are beside the point as those new devices from Kemper and other engineers are also addressing some shortcomings in traditional amps which traditional builders have been unwilling or unable to solve.
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The Kemper PFA is not a modeller. There is a difference between modelling and profiling. The former is "inspired by"; the latter is plain old "stealing from". Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
The argument is that no property is lost so how could it be stealing? The uniqueness and identity of the amp being profiled is lost and with it its market value; that is a form of theft.
Profiling is like going to the bookshop, buying a book, scanning it into your portable reader, releasing it on scribd, and returning the book for a refund.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 04-15-2016 at 04:08 AM.
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Well, yes, so are scanners ethical? Or any other form of copy machine?
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Yes, I remember when I was a student ... we called those "scripts" as oposed to real books. True scripts were written down lecrures, for subjects where books were not available, out of primt, but there were also xeroxed books floating ... And then there are "Real Books" ...
Don't want to chamge the subject, I mostly agree with your views.Last edited by Vladan; 04-15-2016 at 06:35 AM.
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The latest news I heard was that the League of Extraordinary Guitarists didn't really give a shit. What is more of a concern is the ethical dilemma concerning the fact that legal marijuana costs as much as black market weed...
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I suspected as much (thanks). Technology and the digital world will no doubt always be a step ahead of copyright laws. That site reminds me of Napster some years back. Unfortunately, technology creates a spectrum of grays to be assessed by arcane tools designed to assess black and white. Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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Sorry, Vladan. I hit "Delete" when I meant to hit "Save". Can't be arsed to rewrite it (and the forum heaves a collective sigh). I recall my friends who went to law school all xeroxing required texts for 10% to 20% of their actual costs. They formed a group to buy the actual textbook, threw their names into a hat. One lucky guy got to keep the actual textbook; the rest got xeroxed copies. Originally Posted by Vladan
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Legal weed costs just as much to grow and we gotta pay the taxman. And then Big Tobacco wants in... Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
What I am really concerned about is the ethicality of getting involved in a sex orgy coming soon to a Virtual Reality headset near you.
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ut-world-peaceLast edited by Jabberwocky; 04-15-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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Let me tell you. The 7th grade was horrible. Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
It's a wonder I'm sane!
(wipes drool, struggles against restraints....)
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I find the very concept of "ethical", applied to a modeler, in this case a profiler, hilarious, to say the least. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Only people with way too much time on their hands can cogitate something as preposterous as this.
Sorry Jabberwocky, you're on your own here!
Last edited by LtKojak; 04-16-2016 at 04:36 AM.
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A more important question might be to ask if the hardware is worth the investment if the profiling could be done with a decent computer. It seems like obsolescence could be around the corner, would anyone make a profile of a profiler if it didn't have a distinctive voice of its own to add to the mix?
The time spent evaluating the nuances of 1500 samples might be better spent actually playing and practicing because that is what it takes to develop a good sound. I like the idea of selecting the sounds using the blindfold method, pick what sounds good to your ears without the catchy trademarks. You might not use a tweed if the nameplate wasn't advertising it....
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