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Ignore lists are great things. Better than arguing. I love modelers but I also greatly respect your ear and your point of view. Not sure why folks are insulting you but you don't deserve it.
Originally Posted by vintagelove
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04-12-2016 04:57 PM
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Since it seems I'm on your ignore list it's likely you won't see this, but let me ask you this: Who, where and when insulted him, before he made the first insult? Originally Posted by jzucker
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My apologies for dragging the thread OT, but I hate to see misinformation spread on sites where people come to learn. I didn't write what I did to convince myself or the other gentleman that i'm right.
I do it so someone who hasn't had the benefit of trying different amps etc, doesn't wonder why he can't get the sound/feel he wants out of xyz amp.
For instance, I had an awesome Redplate amp, as well as a BF Super Reverb. The FEEL of these two amps is WORLDS apart.
The super is the most forgiving amp I've ever played. The Redplate is like a cannon attached to your picking hand. Both myself, and another guitarist friend of mine (great player) noticed the same thing. The Redplate is a little TOO sensitive when your playing bebop. While it excels at playing blues, etc. when you're burning through some bebop, it's tough. The second my buddy (who also owns a redplate) played through the super, his comment was "This is like the mom of amps, you really can't do any wrong".
There are various reasons for the different feels, but the point is, different amps are.... different.
The whole point of me bringing it up, is if someone who didn't know any better read that original post, they might be led to believe that there was no point in moving on from their "xyz" amp, the problem must just be them.
So sometimes we have to go a little OT for both sides to be stated, then at least the person reading it has both sides of the story.
P.S. Thanks for the kind words Jack. BTW, I certainly think modelers have their place, especially in recording. Unless you have $$$$ in equipment and years of recording/listening experience, chances are the kemper is going to give you better results.
P.P.S. speaking of ethics, I'm pretty surprised everyone and their brother isn't already putting out their own "profiling technology". Once sales of their hardware units slow down, they will make a sh@t load of money by putting out a dedicated DI box and software bundle. I'll probably even pony up for one at that point!!!
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You won't see other "profilers" as Kemper has applied for a patent for the automated profiling process of: sending a test signal into a device, analyzing the output and automatically setting parameters in the modeler. Fractal and Bias both have matching EQ which can go a long way to duplicating a specific real amp, but you have to manually select and configure an underlying Fractal or Bias model before shooting the match EQ to be applied to that model.
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Originally Posted by MaxTwang
Interesting, I wonder what folks are going to do to "get around that".
Let's say they take out the automation, in other words it "samples" the amp, lists the parameters (perhaps even displays the waveform and you could adjust ADSR), then you have the option to change them (doesn't axe fx have all kinds of digital adjustments, bias, voltages, etc) or accept them. Would that violate the patent?
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So are we asking whether it would be ethical to profile an amp profiler? I love this thread. I have no clue what the answer is.
-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf
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Regarding shame and ethics... As an ex IBMer I can say that my experiences in international business there is neither.
Not only between competitors but among peers and co-workers. Rewards for design theft, plagiarism, copying, are many, penalties non existant.
My last years in my company I refused to invent anything, write unique software ( I decided to test code and other designs instead ) submit patent applications, write technical papers, or participate in cost reduction sugestion activities as theft of work was rampant.
Kids downloading music, "cracking" software, and even whiskey bootlegging to avoid taxes are only a FEW examples where ethics are bankrupt. Anyone who thinks the world is an ethical, or moral place is living in a dreamworld.Last edited by GNAPPI; 04-12-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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What are Roland V-Guitar, POD Line 6, Behringer whatever ...
They are all a little bit different, especially in marketing talk, but are not more than EQ/ Impulse response matching devices. Now you have one doing it on a single press of a button.
Seems the difference is now everyone can make their own models, presumably for free, while above mentioned supposedly cut some deals with original manufacturers?
Don't think so. Mostly, they do not say VOXXY, Marshal Q ..., but rather something like British Clean, Famous Chinese, and so on.
Further, Waves, Voxengo, Steinberg, Sony (Sound Forge) ...., and many other, they all have plug ins for EQ matching and impulse response matching for years and years already. There are even freeware plug ins for same purpose.
Admitably, none of them work on single press. You have to capture either source and/ or target and match, but it's not really a big deal.
I really wonder why is there suddenly so much fuss about it?
Just to ad, the feel you get about the response of an amp when you play it is almost completely unrelated to the sound one can hear coming out of it. Make it loudness level matched and puff, it's gone.
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Digital amp modellers are not parasitic. The Kemper PFA is parasitic. I have a problem with parasites and freeloaders. Originally Posted by Vladan
Ironic then that for a product that lives parasitically off other people's efforts, it recognises that it is important not to let others live parasitically off its own efforts Espacenet - Bibliographic data .
The Kemper PFA by itself is nothing if it does not feed off other people's efforts.
That is the ethical problem with it.
I guess one could say that it like the NRA argument with guns that guns don't kill people; people kill people. The Kemper PFA may not by itself be unethical but it foments unethical behaviour and practices such as the aforementioned practice of buying amps, Kempering (ha, I invented a gerund) them and then returning the amps under consumer rights. One may argue, then it depends on how one uses a tool but the tool itself is not to be blamed if one abuses it. But how else is there to use this tool? Oh, use it only to sample the amps that you own (returnable under 30 days, no questions asked, as afforded by consumer protection laws).... Riiiight! It practically encourages this behaviour.
No different from a microphone or video camera. I can imagine the day of bootlegging perfect digitally miked and videoed copies of concerts and then reselling them on the Virtual Reality headset (coming soon) marketplace. Is that ethical? That is what the Kemper PFA is.
A digital amp modeller competes by offering a digital interpretation of an analogue product. The Kemper PFA does not compete; it feeds off and then offers itself up as the perfect digital incarnation of the actual product. Not any old 65 Deluxe Reverb either but that actual 65 Deluxe Reverb sampled. And we know that each valve/tube amp is unique even amongst the same model type. Without that analogue product, the Kemper PFA is nothing. A digital amp modeller is still something even if it is not perfect. A digital amp modeller creates a digital interpretation of a 65 Deluxe Reverb and offers it to you. A Kemper PFA IS the 65 Deluxe Reverb that it directly samples off and says that IT, the KEMPER PFA, to all intents and purposes, is that exact 65 Deluxe Reverb in digital clothes. It creates nothing.
While the digital amp modeller competes alongside innovation, the Kemper PFA kills innovation. There is a fine difference.
P.S. All that said and done, I am still getting a Kemper PFA next year. Why? The temptation is too damn great. Pandora's Box is open. Hypocrisy? Yes, oodles of it. It is unethical but the tech is there. I use it.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 04-13-2016 at 05:55 AM.
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And what about the politically fashionable "You didn't build that" sentiment as it applies to this topic?
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I understand.
What puzzles me, in effect it is not much different from impulse response matching software and I don't remember anybody complained about those. Probably because guitar amps are 1. hardware; 2. much broader market with much greater revenue potential than some obscure and moot in use software plug - in ?
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From a purely argumentative standpoint not much. Perhaps because (1) most guitar folks who don't discuss digital products on guitar boards don't know what a Speaker IR is, (2) Don't know how to produce a quality IR or have the equipment required to produce a quality IR Originally Posted by Vladan
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Actually you say that but before I studied Jazz I only played my own music, I felt playing someone else was un musical and cheating. When I turned up at Jazz school (having chose Jazz for its freedom and improvisation) I was told to learn intolerable amounts of someone else's licks.
Never did it, never liked it but one day I'll stop being an idiot and do so :-)
In regards to copy right, more often than not, its merely a tool to control property for the sake of producing capitol for people who have capitol, which you could argue is unethical in itself.Last edited by Archie; 04-13-2016 at 03:21 PM.
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I didn't watch the whole video but the point the guy is making is not necessarily that Kemper amps are unethical. Rather, he is saying that it is unethical to order an amp from a store, profile it, and send it back. It would surprise me if he was saying Kemper amps are unethical because this is the guy who has done a ton of promotion and videos on Harley Benton and Joyo pedals which we all know are ripoffs of other designs.
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One thing to think about is the Kemper captures an amp at a specific setting (gain, tone and volume) through a specific cab as captured with specific mics at specific mic positions through the Kemper's mic preamp or 1 or more specific mic preamps. After profiling you can tweak the gain and tone on the Kemper but they are not calibrated to the specific amp and rarely, if ever, react like the gain and tone controls on the amp.
OTOH modelers attempt to reproduce 1 or more channels of an amp, including replicating how the gain and tone controls react on the amp. Modelers are also not influenced by cab, mics and mic preamps like a profile.
The more you tweak the gain and tone of a profile on the Kemper the more you diverge from the real amp. Tweaking gain and tone on a modeler should react the same as the amp.
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Some amp builders do not want their circuits copied, Dumble has asked sites to remove schematics. The late Ken Fischer didn't seem to mind and had commented that he had never heard a Trainwreck clone that sounded right, only he could build a Trainwreck.
Some builders don't' mind modelers replicating their amps: Carol Ann has sent amps to Fractal for modeling, IIRC Friedman has also cooperated with Fractal. Cliff at Fractal has discussed amp design and modeling with a lot of this boutique builders, Cliff knows amp design as well as or better than the majority of boutique builders. I would trust Cliff to design new models - Cliff knows tone, circuits and coding - which brings the question: Why is there not a market for new designs in the digital realm?
Personally I don't have a problem with profiling an amp you own for personal use, but selling a profile of an amp you bought/returned is a problem for me as is selling profiles of amps if the builder has asked their circuits not be copied (not illegal, but a matter of courtesy and respect).
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this forum has a spotty record IMO. We'll rail against kemper for ethics but find no problem with joyo, the dozens of fender amp clones or dumble clones.
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People just like to disagree.
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This is true and why I not only have not participated since my last missive, but haven't read a single post besides this one. I saw it in my email. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I have learned to say my piece until I'm satisfied I said it to my satisfaction then ditch. People won't agree with you unless they already agree with you.
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It's all part of the new victim-hood and political correctness society we now live in!
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No they don't. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Originally Posted by John A.
You're both wrong!
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Can we bring this home, please...
Ethics and/or ethical behavior, by definition is a relative and completely subjective human construct (a uniquely human concept at that-- a lion doesn't wonder if it's OK to eat the zebra).
What is ethical to me could be abhorrent to you and vice versa. If stealing some food to feed starving children is unethical, then I would be happily unethical every time.
Life, like all of us, is all over the map when it comes to moral philosophy. Fortunately there are at least as many philosophical dispositions as there are guitar tones -- infinite.
Is "modeling" a guitar tone an ethical trespass approaching IP law... give me a break.
Lots of reasons for all sorts of positions in this thread, but either everyone is right (which they are) or everyone is wrong because ethics are anything but absolute.
Please pass the Plato...
-C
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Ethics are not determinable, in an exact sense: But that doesn't make them unimportant.
If you think otherwise, please review certain events in European history from say 1933-45, and in the former USSR from 1927-54. Roughly 25 million civilians were killed to fulfill "ethical imperatives".
Suppose the Kemper is everything it is cracked up to be. Now it can replicate all amp models...well let's suppose that is possible. Not everyone will do it---what will happen is that some middlemen types will do this, sell the files to everyone and then the incentive/ability of other equip. manufacturers to survive will be in question. So, 15 years from now...we are all in thrall to Kemper-dom. That may be fine with you. Me, I distrust concentrations of power because the temptation to bully and take advantage of people is something that is never absent in human history.Last edited by goldenwave77; 04-14-2016 at 08:34 PM.
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And you're stating this as an absolute fact, not your own completely relative subjective construct? Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
You cannot make an absolute claim that everything is relative while excusing your own statement from the claim.
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